This Is the Kind of Crap that Pisses Me Off

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Kropotkin
Where the later in many ways is the result of the former...

It is a classic chicken or egg situation; one thing is for sure and that is that broken families and the glorification of violence (not to mention violent role models) reinforces a downward spiral.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara This doesn't really exist. Most Black music has nothing to do with violence, and the music that does glorify violence is produced largely for a white audience. The acceptance of children born out of wedlock is another myth. Whites are more likely to have children out of wedlock than Blacks as a percentage of their own groups, and not just sheer numbers. However, because Black poverty is concentrated and white poverty is not, it makes it much easier to stereotype this as being a Black problem.

Che: There is no question that large numbers of whites listen to rap music as well but as a percentage of youth population I would guess (no evidence to support this though) per capita there are more young black males then young white males listening. Establishing case and effect, as in listening to violent media causes violent behavior, is much more iffy. There have been well publised studies that went both ways depending on who funded the research so we really can't make any solid determination there.

Out of wed-lock births and single parent families is very well documented by the government census though. Here is a few stats from the U.S. Census web site. Illegitimate births by race: White 16.9%, Asian 8%, Black 66.7%, Hispanic 36.7%. I'm not posting this to promote racism instead I'm hoping we can have a frank conversation about the origins of poverty and violence. Violence and poverty are interlinked and single-parent families are a great way to propetuate poverty.

[Tingkai]

A significant reason for the high level of crime within black communities is that for years it was never addressed mainly because of attitudes like Sonic. If someone acknowledge the high crime rate, there would be whites who would go "ahah, blacks are violent criminals.'

IIRC, in recent years, the black leaders in the US have started addressing the problem of violence within their community, the first step being acknowledging that there is a problem.

Violence has declined. The murder rate among blacks fell by 50 per cent (from 50 per 100,000 to about 25 per 100,000) between 1990 and 1999.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Caligastia


Surely there are more whites than blacks living in poor conditions in the US, whites being the majority.

Poor whites are probably the ones committing half the murders in the US.

While there are more whites living in poverty, I suspect that more blacks are living in poverty as percentage of a racial population, hence the high murder rate in the black community.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Tingkai


Poor whites are probably the ones committing half the murders in the US.

While there are more whites living in poverty, I suspect that more blacks are living in poverty as percentage of a racial population, hence the high murder rate in the black community.

You've made some good points on this thread, but this one seems to be a little out of whack. How can poverty begin to explain a murder rate that is 4 times higher than that of the rest of the population? This is a question of culture, both generally violent American culture and extremely violent African American culture. Poverty alone cannot account for it. There are in fact many groups of poor people who have very low rates of violent crime.

I'm part Scotch-Irish, another group who has had a long and violent history in the U.S. For the most part we have been absorbed into the larger culture and our cultural tendencies muted. Please note how none of this has anything to do with race, a point Sonic particularly needs to keep in mind. It's a question of the values and functionality of a particular culture or subculture in it's environment. I have no doubt that slavery and Jim Crow have their part in the African American murder statistics as do more modern influences like government policies and a good deal of political demagoguery.

[Tingkai]

I agree that culture plays a role. The recent efforts to address the problem of violence in the black community is an attempt to change the culture.

Poverty also plays a role, and I suspect a large role. People who are poor have less to lose so jail terms do not act as a deterent. As well, education levels among the poor are lower and the less educated are probably more likely to commit violent crimes. However, this is only a gut feeling on my part. I don't have any facts to back it up.

Poverty rates could also affect the murder rate statistics.

Let's assume that among poor people the murder rate is 20 per 100,000 and for others 1 in 100,000. And lets say that the poverty rate among blacks is 50 per cent and among whites 10 per cent. Then assume there are 2 million whites and 200,000 blacks (since blacks make up about 15 per cent of the US population).

That would mean for blacks you have 21 murders (20 +1). For whites, it would 38 murders (40+18). But on a 100,000 ratio, it would be blacks 10.5 (21/2)and whites 2.9 (58/20).

So the higher poverty rate among blacks could, and I stress could, explain the higher murder rate.

[moomin]

Originally posted by Tingkai
So the higher poverty rate among blacks could, and I stress could, explain the higher murder rate.

Would you hazard a guess as to why the levels of violent crime is in the order of two magnitudes lower in Sweden than in the USA, remebering that Swedes as a group are now poorer than American blacks? If poverty had anything to do with it, we'd be Washington DC.

[TheStinger]

There are many reasons why Sweden has lower crime than the USA however being white, blonde haired and blue eyed isn't one of them

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by moomin
Would you hazard a guess as to why the levels of violent crime is in the order of two magnitudes lower in Sweden than in the USA, remebering that Swedes as a group are now poorer than American blacks? If poverty had anything to do with it, we'd be Washington DC.

There are a lot of factors that cause violent crime, such as culture, poverty levels, access to weapons. In my previous post I stressed that poverty COULD explain the higher murder rate among blacks.

I would question whether household incomes for Black Americans is higher than household incomes in Sweden, as you claim. Do you have any stats that shows this to be true? Do the stats compare purchasing power?

We still have to consider that the poverty rate for Black Americans is about 20 per cent vs. 6.4 per cent in Sweden

See: http://www.ccsd.ca/pubs/2002/olympic/olympics2.pdf

http://www.whitehouse.gov/fsbr/income.html

I don't know if the poverty rates can be compared. The definition of poverty may be different.

It is probably fair to assume that Sweden has a stronger social net than the US. That may have an influence on violent crimes.

Access to guns is another factor.

And culture plays a big role, as others have mentioned on this thread.

[Sava]

Dude, that's why pot should be legal

[Joe R. Golowka]

This thread illustrates nicely how "libertarian" capitalists are actually advocates of theft. All you have to do is wait for your victim to die and you can keep all the stuff you stole from them. Property = theft.

That said, Mugabe's methods are crappy and will starve the country. All the wealth should be distributed equally, whether white or black. Whether black or white the class/state system is still oppressive & unethical.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by moomin
Would you hazard a guess as to why the levels of violent crime is in the order of two magnitudes lower in Sweden than in the USA, remebering that Swedes as a group are now poorer than American blacks? If poverty had anything to do with it, we'd be Washington DC.

Sweden has a very low immigration rate. There have been several studies which showed young men commite most violent crimes but the subset of young men who aren't married and who don't live near family members or people who know their family members have the highest violent crime rates.

So you have in the US you have a larger group of people who are, statistically, more likely then average to commite violent crime and then you compound it with the fact that many of them don't know the language, the culture, and have limited social support mechanisms availible to them. Top it off by giving them easy access to guns and you can see a few of the reasons for the difference in crime rates.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Oerdin

Sweden has a very low immigration rate. There have been several studies which showed young men commite most violent crimes but the subset of young men who aren't married and who don't live near family members or people who know their family members have the highest violent crime rates.

So you have in the US you have a larger group of people who are, statistically, more likely then average to commite violent crime and then you compound it with the fact that many of them don't know the language, the culture, and have limited social support mechanisms availible to them. Top it off by giving them easy access to guns and you can see a few of the reasons for the difference in crime rates.

Do you have a point here? Are immigrants to blame for the U.S. crime rate? That seems to be what you are saying but it doesn't make a lot of sense in regard to Moomin's point that poverty is not a very good reason for the African American crime stats. Btw, the vast majority of African Americans are not immigrants, but have longer family roots in the U.S. on average than whites.

Secondly, what the hell do guns have to do with crime rates? Do guns decide to rob people, or get even over a perceived slight? They have only one negative effect in that they increase the homicide rate as assaults tend to become deadlier. One small benefit however is that they also tend to get criminals killed or put into prison for life, which results in a decrease in other crimes.

Culture is what drives these differences between nations and groups. Other factors can aggravate things, but usually only in relative terms rather than absolute terms, and none are as important as culture in the case of the U.S. which has not seen serious economic distress in 60 years.

[Tingkai]

The problem with this theory is that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes.

[Kropotkin]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Sweden has a very low immigration rate.

Sweden actually has a comparablity large percentage of immigrants if you compare with many other european countries.

Whatever that has to do with anything. Immigration in itself does not lead to crimes and increased violence.