8 Children Killed in Israeli Attack

[Eli]

Explosion in Jerusalem.

[Eli]

Only the terrorist was hurt.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Eli
Only the terrorist was hurt.

Really?

Why?

[S. Kroeze]

Dear MOBIUS,

How anyone can claim Sharon is innocent is also beyond my comprehension.

"The immediate response of the Israelis, on September 15, was to occupy West Beirut, which had to be seen as the centre of terrorism in general, since Damascus, under Soviet protection, remained out of bounds. A Cabinet communiqué, on September 15, stated that Israel's entry into West Beirut was intended 'to prevent any possible incident and to secure quiet.'[102]

Within a few days, this kind of explanation was to make it impossible for the Begin Government to shake off responsibility for the massacre by Maronite forces of hundreds of Palestinian civilians, including women and children, in the refugee camps at Shabra and Chatila. Begin himself -according to his own evidence, later, before the Kahan Commission- had told the Chief of Staff on the night of September 14-15 that the move into West Beirut was 'in order to protect Muslims from the revenge of the Phalangists.'[103]

In fact what the I.D.F. did in West Beirut, under Minister for Defense Ariel Sharon and Chief of Staff Rafael Eytan, was to introduce the said Phalangists into the Palestinian camps, with the mission of clearing out suspected nests of fedayeen combatants. What the Christian soldiers then did, in accordance with the general practice of the Lebanese civil wars, was to take indiscriminate vengeance on the whole population perceived as hostile. This course was predictable in any circumstances; it could be regarded as certain in the immediate aftermath of the murder of the most popular of Maronite leaders. Apparently, the motive of Sharon and Eytan was to spare Israeli casualties, in a war that had already cost more than four hundred Israeli lives. Sharon and Eytan chose to disregard the direct threat to the lives of Palestinian noncombatants, which followed from the use of the armed Maronites.

The massacre which followed was, in one sense, an 'ordinary' massacre by Lebanese standards: one of a series of vendetta butcheries which had been going on sporadically since the outbreak of the Civil War in the mid-seventies. Where it was far from ordinary was that those who carried it out had been unleashed at the command of senior Israeli officers, in an area which Israeli forces had entered in order 'to prevent any possible incident and to secure quiet,' in the wake of the assassination of Bashir Gemayel."

(source: Conor Cruise O'Brien, 'The Siege: The Saga of Israel and Zionism',1986)

[102] Government Press Office, Sept 15; quoted in Legum (ed.), Middle East Contemporary Survey, Vol. VI, p. 151..
[103] Legum (ed.), MECS, Vol. VI, p. 664.
note for Sirotnikov: 'The Siege: The Saga of Israel and Zionism' is not identical to 'How Israel Was Won' by B.Thomas; it was written by another author and has a different title; nor was it published by Neturei Karta
Nevertheless this knowledge is of dubious sources and factually incorrect or misleading. True specialists do not need to go to the library and search for quotes proving that this is bull; they prove their right by repeating it a zillion times.
The fact that person after person, who studied Israeli history and Israeli law for final tests in Israel does not agree with this information, proves that this information is most probably wrong.
No one should bother much for one misleaded historian, fellow of Dartmouth College(US) and sympathetic to Israel with an alt.history book, especially since this study is recommended by the Britannica as objective

One has to admit the IDF did succeed excellently to 'secure quiet' .

By the way, it is more or less traditional that the Prime Minister of Israel is either a terrorist, a war crimimal or both.
Ben-Gurion specialised in 'ethnic cleansing', the greatest crime of Israeli history; the most disconcerting of all is probably the career of Yitzhak Shamir, operations commander of the Stern Gang when it was Pro-Nazi!

"Likud's position was forcefully represented by its leader, Yitzhak Shamir, who served as Israel's prime minister from 1986 to 1992. Born in Poland in 1915, Shamir immigrated to Palestine at the age of twenty and was quickly attracted to Jabotinsky's maximalist version of Zionism. He joined the Irgun in 1937 and later became one of the leaders of the Stern Gang, a terrorist organization responsible for carrying out attacks on Palestinians and British officials. Like his Likud predecessor, Menachem Begin, Shamir believed that all the lands of biblical Israel should be incorporated into the Jewish state. As prime minister, he intensified the construction of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza and committed the government to a policy of incorparating the territories into Israel."

(source: W.L.Cleveland, 'A History of the Modern Middle East',1994)

note for Sirotnikov: 'A History of the Modern Middle East' is not identical to 'How Israel Was Won' by B.Thomas; it was written by another author and has a different title; nor was it published by Neturei Karta
Nevertheless this knowledge is of dubious sources and factually incorrect or misleading. True specialists do not need to go to the library and search for quotes proving that this is bull; they prove their right by repeating it a zillion times.
The fact that person after person, who studied Israeli history and Israeli law for final tests in Israel does not agree with this information, proves that this information is most probably wrong.
No one should bother much for one misleaded historian, professor at Simon Fraser University(Canada) with an alt.history book

"Did Yitzhak Yzertinsly -rabbi Shamir- to use his underground nom de guerre, now the Foreign Minister of Israel, know of his movement's proposed confederation with Adolf Hitler? In recent years the wartime activities of the Stern Gang have been thoroughly researched by one of the youths who joined it in the post-war period, when it was no longer pro-Nazi. Baruch Nadel is absolutely certain that Yzertinsky Shamir was fully aware of Stern's plan: 'They all knew about it'.[9]

When Shamir was appointed Foreign Minister, international opinion focused on the fact that Begin had selected the organiser of two famous assassinations: the killing of Lord Moyne, the British Minister Resident for the Middle East, on 6 November 1944; and the slaying of Count Folke Bernadotte, the UN's special Mediator on Palestine, on 17 September 1948. Concern for his terrorist past was allowed to obscure the more grotesque notion that a would-be ally of Adolf Hitler could rise to the leadership of the Zionist state. When Begin appointed Shamir, and honoured Stern by having postage stamps issued which bore his portrait, he did it with the full knowledge of their past. There can be no better proof than this that the heritage of Zionist collusion with the Fascists and the Nazis, and the philosophies underlying it, carries through to contemporary Israel."

(L.Brenner, 'Zionism in the Age of the Dictators',1983)

[9] Interview with Nadel.
note for Sirotnikov: 'Zionism in the Zge of the Dictators' is not identical to 'How Israel Was Won' by B.Thomas; it was written by another author and has a different title; nor was it published by Neturei Karta
Nevertheless this knowledge is of dubious sources and factually incorrect or misleading. True specialists do not need to go to the library and search for quotes proving that this is bull; they prove their right by repeating it a zillion times.
The fact that person after person, who studied Israeli history and Israeli law for final tests in Israel does not agree with this information, proves that this information is most probably wrong.
No one should bother much for one misleaded journalist who is an anti-Zionist Jew with an alt.history book
Sincerely,

S.Kroeze

[DinoDoc]

These debates got boring when Natan left. I'm suprised that you people are still going around in this thread.

[Sirotnikov]

Well DOH! Those were war crimes, if he is responsible - then logically he is a war criminal!

I wasn't aware that miscalculation of risks and an inability to see the future is a war crime. By god, let's judge everyone!!!

But then it is evident that you consider the lives of innocent Palestinians beneath your contempt...

blah blah blah

When was the last time you showed regret towards anything Israeli ?

The christian phalanges were trained by Israel and were specifically taught about combat rules and purity of arms. Israelis thought it sank in. They were proven wrong.

Look, Israeli commanders were also killed some times. The IDF didn't start comitting massacares. We expected the same from the Christians. Post factum, we know we were wrong.

Israeli intelligence apparently didn't report what was really going on in time, and so the massacare carried on uninterrupted.

If you think that this type of thing is impossible, please look at the 1973 war, when Israeli intelligence missed all singlas of the upcoming attack, and Israel was surprised on it's holiest day.

Why has this hapenned. Because intelligence facilities used to compete and to over rule each others. Also, only in the mid 80s, was the reporting mechanism in Military Intelligence rearranged so that messages would arrive quicker, and to lessen beaurocracy.

Furthermore, though I don't recall exact punishments and names, I am aware that most of the intelligence generals which observed the area and failed to stop or report the massacare were indeed punished.

Yes, he was so badly punished for those murders that he was allowed to build and expand the settlements in the occupied territories etc. Then after that they promoted him to the highest office in all the land! Some punishment!

He shouldn't be punished for those murders as he didn't commit them. He simply failed to forsee them and stop them in time, partially because of a rotten intelligence mechanism.

We had you cornered like a rat, spewing contradictory babble about whether the flag was limp - or that the ship was sailing too fast... Man, you didn't know which way to turn...

Not at all condradictory.

I said that the ship was mispercieved to be travelling at a faster speed than it was. If it was travelling at a slow speed, it's flag could very well have been limp.

This was the extreme case Siro, they knew exactly where to attack, they knew exactly what they were attacking and they attacked for SO LONG!!!

They knew where to attack because they had the devices for it.
They knew not what they attacked, because the ship was an intelligence ship, which don't singal their identity, duh!
And long is a relative term.

Why then the attack was suddenly aborted and the seamen were saved? Why live wittnesses of our horrible crimes?

Surely if it were all a mistake you can tell me all the Israelis that were court martialled or sent into the 'wilderness' as you so euphemistically put it...

Interesting, I was not aware that Allied forces were court martialled for any of their recent mistakes in afghanistan, be that firing on innocent people, or on their comrades.

I guess that means that you hold Israeli troops to higher standards of discipline than Allied troops? Why the double standard?

41% of the occupied territories are already under the direct control of the settlements as it is - it is a number that is increasing!

LOL

you're mixing your numbers.

41% is what is described as indirect control even by the most zealous of left wingers, and this includes all possible effect, to increase the number.

Direct control is IIRC around 8% , probably less.

I don't need to twist anything - all I have to do is give you enough rope...

You always twist something.

like presenting the 41% as direct control.

Yes, no matter how wrong you are - you must not quit!!! Hence, in your increasing desperation you post utter nonsense, and then I ignore it and accuse you for posting nonsense...

Interesting, you accuse me of posting nonsense?
Usually you post alot of bold print and leave...

Why the change? feel your name is in danger?

You know, even people who hold very similar opinions to you (read : other eurocoms ) have said you're a stooge. Notice, I'm paraphrasing their words since their real words would be censored.

Ask CNN...

Ask CNN what?

Find me a report by any news agency, which was written prior to the bombing, which proves that Hamas and Jihad signed a truce agreement.

You know what? You won't find any.

You know why? Because no such agreement was ever signed.

What really happenned?

The usual low ranking Hamas members spread everyday propoganda about "Hamas will consider to possibly quit terrorist activities inside the green line, if Israel fully withdraws".

Such ambiguous and meaningless declarations are a dime adozed. Why did this one got famous? because the pals (and yourself) get hold of it for propoganda purposes.

The fact that several terracts were prevented in the days sorrouding the bombing, proves that no such truce was ever in effect or in planning.

Furthermore, it's even more rediculous that you present it, as if Israel would under any circumstance commence talks with Hamas, or withdraw to appease them.

It was reported that Sharon gave the personal order for this attack - it is inconceivable that he did not realise the ramifications of dropping a 1000kg bomb on a heavily populated block of flats!!!

Oy, do I really have to go over the basics?

The PM gives the final go on such attacks. But he doesn't oversee every aspect of it. He said "go and kill that terrorist". The means, way and time is up to the IDF.

A special inquiry was set up by left winger Haim Ramon in the Special Operations Knesset Comitte, and among it's findings was that no Hamas truce existed, that work on terracts continued and that the military failed in preventing casualties.

The tone of your initial posts were that they were acceptable losses...

Depends whether you mean my objective or subjective opinion.

Objectively - I think they are unacceptable losses since I suspect we haven't done everything in our reasonable power to avoid them. Using a 1 ton bomb seems excessive.

Subjectively - The terrorist dead is accused of having worked on a huge chain of terrorist attacks, that have saved hundreds of Israeli lives. I prefer him and several innocent palestinians dead, than several hundreds innocent Israelis dead.

So, how many IDF personel have been convicted of these hundreds of 'accidental' deaths...

How many Allied personel have been convicted of hundreds of accidental deaths in Afghanistan? Yugoslavia? Africa?

See, this is the double standard I'm talking about.

Are they accidents, is that your definition of an accident - we knew we'd kill civilians, but we didn't mean to!

It's pure murder!

Murder of persons in the context of war is justified and acceptable. Infact, organized use of brute force to resolve conflicts is exactly what war is about.

Welcome to war, outside of the civil justice system.

If you actually think, that any country will not make a quick math, and prefer several innocent deaths of the other sides, over deaths on his own side, then you're not a bigot but rather a damned fool.

Civilian death is never acceptable.

Great.

Have you finished court martialling all soldiers responsible for every civilian death since the signing of the geneva convention? Didn't think so.

Like a 1000kg bomb hitting an apartment block?

A 1000kg bomb hitting a random apartment block would indeed be a war crime.

A 1000kg bomb hitting an apartment block of a master terrorist, a combatant responsible for dozens past and expected future deaths is a war action.

Whether it was miscalculated - I need to have the entire intelligence info to tell.

You claim you're on holiday, guess you'd better get your D/L Shiber to answer this...

You really expect someone other than be to even blow wind on you?

[Sirotnikov]

S Kroeze - well at least you have a sense of humor

But again - do you still support your previous contentions that:

1) inter-ethnical (racial) marraige is forbidden in israel
2) israel is an appartheid of 3 societies : ashkenazi, sephardi and arabs
3) a jew is only one who follows the halacha (jewish religious law, mainly the mishna and talmud)

You have previously said you believe in these nonsense, which given all my will power, I'm not able to disprove, since you question everything I present to you, from personal evidence, to actual Israeli law.

As far as your sources go, I randomly chose (L.Brenner, 'Zionism in the Age of the Dictators',1983 and read several chapters.

Not surprisingly, I found a copy of it hosted for free on Radio Islam www.abbc.com , a known racist and anti-setmitist site.

You should read it, as most of your views of judaism and Israel are taken from resources which are featured there.

As far as the book itself goes - it's is exceptionally focused on the goal of proving that Zionism is evil and dictatorial. In doing so it forgets some parts and omits some human sense.

For instance, it blames the Stern gang for trying to contact the Nazis. It presents them as if they betrayed their own people.

However, the opposite is true.

Trying to convince the Nazis to resettle jews, thus keeping them alive, to prevent them from being slaughtered, is IMO a very positive thing.

That aspect, however, is skipped in the book, which tries vehemently to tie Zionism to the Nazis, while it's ideology is based very much on socialism, as proven in the structures of yishuv and Israel.

This book does not even attempt to be an impartial review of Zionism, but rather goes out to provide factual evidence for those whose opinion is set in stone.


That is the main problem with your sources.

Most of them are very partial and you fail to notice that.

You rely on one of the smallest movements in Judaism (Neturei Karta) to define the whole of Judaism. You rely on sources whose entire goal is to prove Zionism is bad, to tell you impartial truth about Zionism.

Have you ever even accidentally read a book that was NOT critical towards Zionism? I doubt it.


So again, it would be stupid of me to argue with you based on points.


You have to change your attitude and understand that you have to take the writers bias into account.

[CyberGnu]

Hey, Siro, whose DL was shiber?

Oh, and are muxec and panag the same person?

[Eli]

Explosion in Jerusalem. Tens of casualties.

****ing Arabs. There was supposed to be a good DS9 episode now.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Eli
Explosion in Jerusalem. Tens of casualties.

****ing Arabs. There was supposed to be a good DS9 episode now.

Obviously had nothing to do with a 1000kg bomb landing on a heavily populated apartment...

****ing Zionists.

[Sirotnikov]

Obviously had nothing to do with a 1000kg bomb landing on a heavily populated apartment...

Well this just shows you know ****.

The best of my info, the casualties were not living in the same apartment but rather in near houses, which were destroyed due to the large mass of the bomb chosen.

oh, and Mobius, this Israeli attack obviously had nothing to do with the 2nd in command in Hamas working on a mega terrorist act in that building. It has nothing to do with his attempts to orchestrate 6 suicide bombs at the same time.

Btw, I think I understood why a 1000 Kg bomb was chosen. It's a message.

I remembered now that this is the same person that was responsible for several attempts of planing 1000 Kg bombs in Israel.

IIRC there were two such attempts. One in the parking lot of the Azrieli Towers (tel aviv's newest sky scrapers) and one attempt to detonate the Tel Aviv in-town High Way.

Gnu - as for you rants - I suspect you and S Kroeze and Mobius are more likely to be the same person, given your absolute idiotic reasoning.

[DinoDoc]

Suicide Bomber Kills 6 at Hebrew University

By Steve Weizman
The Associated Press
Wednesday, July 31, 2002; 7:25 AM


JERUSALEM –– An apparent suicide bomber detonated explosives in a crowded cafeteria at Hebrew University during lunchtime Wednesday, and an Israeli official said at least six people were killed and more than 30 wounded.

The blast, at the university’s Frank Sinatra cafeteria, came at a time when classes are not in session. However, students are taking exams and the cafeteria was busy at the time of the blast.

"There was a terrorist and he blew up," a witness, identified only as Shai, told Army Radio. "There is a lot of chaos, a lot of police. It's a mess, there's a lot of wounded."

Sirens wailing, rescue vehicles rushed to the scene, swiftly removing bloodied victims. Sniffer dogs were checking to see if there were any additional bombs in the area.

"What I can say now is that there are a number of dead," said Jerusalem's deputy police chief Ilan Franko. "It's still too early to have a clear picture of what happened."

The Israeli rescue service also said it appeared a number of people were killed, and perhaps as many as 30 were wounded.

The university is located near the border between traditionally Arab east Jerusalem and west Jerusalem.

Most of the students are Jewish, though a large number of Arabs also attend the university. Israel's Channel 2 television said Arab students were believed to be among the casualties.

Wednesday's blast came a day after a Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself at a food stand in Jerusalem, killing himself and wounding several Israelis. That explosion was also near the dividing line between east and west Jerusalem.

Palestinian suicide bombers have carried out more than 70 attacks, killing more than 250 Israelis, in the current round of Mideast fighting. Jerusalem has been hit more than any other city.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2002Jul31.html

[S. Kroeze]

Dearest Sirotnikov,

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
S Kroeze - well at least you have a sense of humor

But again - do you still support your previous contentions that:

1) inter-ethnical (racial) marraige is forbidden in israel

Your eyesight is truly alarmingly bad. You should definitely visit an ophthalmologist as soon as possible.

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
In my previous encounter with you, you became all touchy about me not respecting your sources, which are wierd. You have shown yourself to misinterpert even those texts (and decided that mixed marriage is forbidden in israel from a pragraph that meant that jewish religious courts only marry jews together (DUH!)).

Thanks a lot for demonstrating again your capital reading skills!

Originally posted by S. Kroeze
Dear Sirotnikov,

Thanks for trying to have a debate!
Yet as usual you are not reading carefully and fantasizing about what is my opinion on some issue.
And though you are the only one who at least tries to refute arguments, you never base them on sources. Another recent, scholarly study would qualify.
Nor do I think it is relevant, which political movement do support some view. It is the evidence that decides.

Let's use the issue about the 'mixed' marriages.
In my opinion the sentence of Thomas is rather muddled:
"Occasionally the Supreme Court will intervene, but generally it does not intrude on rabbinical rulings, e.g., concerning the validity of Jewish marriages outside the orthodox form or the prohibition of marriages of Jews to Moslems or Christians."

I understand this sentence as follows: The rabbinical courts didn't want to allow marriages between Jews and Christians/Muslims, BUT because the Supreme Court intervened it was finally allowed.
So in the end we seem to agree that 'mixed' marriages are allowed (since when?). Yet is still surprises me that the legislator(parliament) did NOT decree by law.
In a democratic constitutional state that would have been the only possible procedure. This incident -the way I understand it (and please correct me by some source when I am wrong)- shows that the possibility of 'mixed' marriages was not matter-of-course.
And this NOT being matter-of-course is suspect in my view!

2) israel is an appartheid of 3 societies : ashkenazi, sephardi and arabs

It is obvious Arabs have not ALL civil rights 'Jewish' citizens possess.
Besides that there are many 'unwritten' discriminating laws.

3) a jew is only one who follows the halacha (jewish religious law, mainly the mishna and talmud)

I still define a Jew by religion, not by 'race'.
To me 'race' is a most abhorrent concept.

You have previously said you believe in these nonsense, which given all my will power, I'm not able to disprove, since you question everything I present to you, from personal evidence, to actual Israeli law.

I am still eagerly waiting for the day when Sirotnikov, the ONLY reliable expert on the subject of Jewish, Zionist and Israeli history, will -in his boundless benevolence- reveal title and writer of the ONLY reliable and recently published academic study on Jewish, Zionist and Israeli history.
My limited intellectual powers will probably not be adequate to comprehend the ONLY revealed truth, but nevertheless I will try.
Since I do not speak, read or write the Language of the Supreme Divine Being, a Hebrew book will not do. I am able to read English, French, German or Spanish.

Thank you!

S.Kroeze

[Kropotkin]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Btw, I think I understood why a 1000 Kg bomb was chosen. It's a message.

That was a very mature message.

[muxec]

Do you want our history? Do you know about Israel Independence War against England(1946-1948) ? Do you know the truth about war 1973 ?