8 Children Killed in Israeli Attack

[Shiber]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Look, the goal of Likud is to establish a Grosse Israel, encompassing all of historical palestine. that puts them on the same level as Hamas, and ergo extremists. The existance of MORE extreme groups doesn't make their views more palatable.

Where did you get that from?
I think you're confusing the Likud with Moledet once again. Moledet is the only party which's goal is to establish a Grosse Israel.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Maybe I misunderstood something here... You were actually alive in 1930? You saw this fertile, unused land with your own eyes?

You did as a matter of fact misunderstood me. I meant that I pass by wild and unused fields every time I drive to a nearby mall, and that during vacations I've been to places in Israel where you can see unused lands that are fit for agriculture which practically stretch beyond the horizon.
Today there are slightly over 6 million people in Israel, which is several times as much as 75 years ago. If there still is free fertile land nowadays than there must have been free fertile land 75 years ago, when there were less Kibutzes and other agricultural settlements than today.

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Well, that wouldn't do much good since today is 2002, roughly 70 years later than the period we are discussing...

No, you can still do that. You'll see so much unused land that is fit for agriculture that you'll become convinced that I'm right.

[CyberGnu]

dino, an apology to Kroeze

[Shiber]

Originally posted by CyberGnu


Please, don't turn into Siro. Focus. What was the point of my statement? Not whether the people of Masada were extremists or not.

The point was that any people under occupation will fight very hard to get rid of their occupiers. The jewish people fought the Roman empire! Plenty of jews died, but that didn't stop them from fighting.

What I understood from your post was that you were trying to compare the Sikari'im to Hamas. This is not going to work, since as I explained the Sikari'im were shunned by most Jews of that period while the Hamas and their actions against Israel are enjoying very wide support in the Palestinian society.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by CyberGnu


Which is why I'm saying you shouldn;t publish your own text books. Learn from impartial text books instead. Import american ones, which while low quality and slanted towards pro-israel at least should be a lot better than what you have right now...

Do you know of any other country that teaches national history and imports books about the subject from other countries?

[CyberGnu]

Yes, except for them.
They spent all their time studying Torah and Talmud and lived off donations. They sent couriers to Europe and N. Africa once in a while to collect money in Jewish towns and Synagogues.
The average Jew couldn't raise donations nor would he live in an Orthodox society and study Torah and Talmud all day long. Therefore they are irrelevant to this case.

Nonononononononononono

I meant the pilgrims, the german brazilians, etc. People who DID move form their confortable city life to the wild frontier.

And since they could do it, so could the jews, IF IT HAD BEEN IMPORTANT TO THEM.

Come on, Shiber. You are not dumb. Stop tip-toeing around the real issue here: the jewish people have no claim on the land of Israel.

Thad had a claim 1500 years ago, but decided not to pursue it... The claim is thus invalid.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
So you are conceeding Kruozes point.

Not at all. You completely missed my point. Read my post again.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by Ned
S. Kroeze, You make it sound so simple. But it is not.

"The only solution of tile problem put forward by the Arab Higher Committee was the immediate establishment of all independent Arab Government, which would deal with the 400,000 Jews now in Palestine as it thought fit."

This is a quote from the Peel Commisssion report.

The end to the Jewish presence in Palestine was and to, some extent, is still the ultimate Arab goal. A second, Final Solution.

You suggest that we Americans could round up all illegal Mexicans and simply return them to Mexico. But, there are tens of millions of them! There may be some lunatics who could advocate this, but can you imagine the human suffering this would cause if it were actuallly attempted? The mere advocacy of such a position is astoundingly racist.

But this is exactly what you and your Arab brethern were and still are advocating. The fate of the Jews in Palestine, if you had your way, would be the same fate they suffered at the hands of the Nazi's.

Couldn't put it better myself. Thank you very much Ned for your support.

[CyberGnu]

And then freed them. If you don't believe me you can check the records and see that many Hamas members were killed, captured or conducted a suicide bombing while they were supposed to be in a Palestinian prison according to the Palestinian records.

link?

The Oslo agreement decreed that peace and normalization between Israel and the PLO should be made in stages. The first few stages required us to transfer certain lands to the PA, which we did, and the Palestinians were supposed to fight terrorism, which they didn't.

take a look at the time table in the Oslo, and then waht Israel actually did.

Then take good long look at the number of settlements, the number of settlers, the area they encompassed and your goverments policies toward the settlements.

Ackording to the Oslo the settlements should be frozen, reality wasn't even close...

So on one side you have a goverment that openly declared that they didn;t want to follow Oslo, on the other side you have a goverment that least tried...

And then, moments after, he made a press conference for arab journalists in which he clearly said that the agreement is bogus and that the PLO has not forgotten that it is obligated to destroy Israel and drive every Jew out of Palestine. You can check and you'll see it's true, every word of it. Or would you rather believe the same man who shook hands and kissed with Saddam Hussein during the gulf war when Iraq was launching missiles at Jewish population centers in Israel.

Temporal confusion? The gulf war was BEFORE the Oslo...

Furthermore, Arafat has said, in both arabic and english, that he is condemning terrorism.

[CyberGnu]

Where did you get that from?
I think you're confusing the Likud with Moledet once again. Moledet is the only party which's goal is to establish a Grosse Israel.

Sharon is Likud, is he not?

'the most remote settlement is to me like Tel Aviv'.

Just the fact that Sharon is working as hard as he can to fight a peace treaty is proof in itself that he is an extremist.... Again, just like Hamas.

[CyberGnu]

You did as a matter of fact misunderstood me. I meant that I pass by wild and unused fields every time I drive to a nearby mall, and that during vacations I've been to places in Israel where you can see unused lands that are fit for agriculture which practically stretch beyond the horizon.
Today there are slightly over 6 million people in Israel, which is several times as much as 75 years ago. If there still is free fertile land nowadays than there must have been free fertile land 75 years ago, when there were less Kibutzes and other agricultural settlements than today.

Well, I didn't misunderstand you... I was sarcastic.

Look, land change. In the last 70 years we've learned to irrigate, to use artifical fertilizer, to avoid land erosion.

That you drive by empty leand doesn't prove anything when we are debating conditions 70 years ago... It would be like me saying 'Americans couldn't have taken the land from the Native Americans. I walk around in Pasadena every day, and everything is paved, and we all know that the native americans didn't pave their roads'.

Panta rei... Everything changes.

[CyberGnu]

Do you know of any other country that teaches national history and imports books about the subject from other countries?

Shiber, I know of no other country that pretends to be an impartial democracy but still continues an aggressive ocupation... So you have to choose. Keep your text books, just don't pretend they are unbiased. Or even true.

[CyberGnu]

What I understood from your post was that you were trying to compare the Sikari'im to Hamas. This is not going to work, since as I explained the Sikari'im were shunned by most Jews of that period while the Hamas and their actions against Israel are enjoying very wide support in the Palestinian society.

I was comparing the palestinians to the jews, and Israel to the romans.

I could have used the ww2 french vs the germans instead, doens't make a difference.

the point is a repressed people will fight for independence.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
So you are conceeding Kruozes point. I think an apology is in order...

Read again all of kroeze's posts regarding the issue of mixed marriage and then kindly explain to my how I am conceeding with his point.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Temporal confusion? The gulf war was BEFORE the Oslo...

I know. My point was that Israel was under attack in 1991. The Oslo agreement was signed in 1994. Do you think that in 3 yrs. time Arafat has changed from a hater of Israel who supports acts of using ballistic missiles against population centers in Israel to a peace-loving person who is willing to compromise with Israel? You must be awfully gullible.

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Furthermore, Arafat has said, in both arabic and english, that he is condemning terrorism.

Maybe he, I dunno... lied? Duh?
May I also remind you that he was under heavy pressure by the US government which was sustained for months before he agreed to release such a statement?