8 Children Killed in Israeli Attack

[Shiber]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
BTW, IIUIC, Kreuze isn't saying secular marriage is forbidden but that it is not recognized legally. Different cause, but the end result is the same.

Furthermore, don't make the mistake of equating not knowing one tidbit of information with not knowing anything.

That's a completely different thing. I admit that secular marriage is not recognized as legal marriage in Israel (nor is it forbidden, though) but so is marrying in a reform ceremony or a civil marriage.
This is due to the fact that Israel grants its citizens with a freedom of religion, but not freedom _within_ your religion if you're Jewish. Jews may only marry in an Orthodox ceremony.
This is all a result of the fact that the Orthodox parties have a lot of political power. See, the balance between the left and the right wing in the parliament is roughly 50%-50%. The Orthodox can tip the balance even with a small number of seats in the parliament when they make deals with left or right-wing parties (the right-wing is usually more prone to accepting such deals). Basically, the Orthodox parties promise to support certain legislations made by the ruling party if that party would appoint a member of an Orthodox party as the minister of internal affairs and continue to allow the Orthodox foundations completele control over the marriage and divorce of Jews.
Sadly, this has gone on for quite some time. Today there are many parties that object the tactics employed by the Orthodox parties, both in the political left and right, and those parties get large amounts of votes as well as a lot of public support.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by Kropotkin
Meanwhile the simple fact that the IDF transports soldiers in huge numbers to Masada might be a small tradition that kind of backfires when you think of the wackos that died there...

I've been to Masada once and I took a guided tour. The tour guide explained that the Sikari'im were seperatists, that they enjoyed very little public support and that some of them could have been considered to be mentally unstable.

The purpose of the tradition of taking Israeli soldiers to Masada is not to teach them that what the Sikari'im did was right. They are taught about a battle that took place and is considered important in Jewish history in a place that was relatively well-preserved and makes a distinctive mark over one who visits the site, and the long journeys that they make through the Yehuda desert have proven to be excellent for grouping the soldiers together.

[CyberGnu]

Not true. Want me to quote from the bible for you?

I know it is biblical, where do you think christians and muslims got it from?

Any religious group can decide what tenets to uphold. Christians do eat pigs, do not force their women to live in huts during their period, but will still call on leviticus to condemn homosexuality. Why do you expect jews to be different?

Jews are not allowed to loan with interest but they were driven out of all other professions other than trade, and those who couldn't be traders (didn't have the connections needed for the job or couldn't travel much) became loaners. Many were beggers too, with very little success though. They had no other choice since they really didn't have any other ways of supporting their families.
Btw, if you think Jews became rich as a result then you're wrong again. Most of the rich Jewish families started from businesses such as trading, accounting, journalism or law.

I didn't say all of them were rich, I said as a group they were better off than the average european, since they took advanate of the rise of the merchant class. The vast majority of europeans stayed as peasants and for the most part not improving their situation until the industrial revolution.

The standard of living is not that good in Israel today either. The rate of unemployment is very high and many people live in poverty. Still there are immigrants from European countries and N. America where the standard of living is much, much higher.

Shiber, I haven't contended that the jewish people reinvented the need o return ot palestine. If fact, I have said so numerous times. Kropotkin articulated it as well.

The key issue here is that the jewish people had 1400 years in which they could have returned, but instead choose a better life, which invalidates any claim on the land.

However, when you're talking about a mostly uninhabited land filled with swamps and deserts and flies that pass terminal diseases and is terrorized by bandits... well, then it's practically suicide going to a place like this. It's better to continue mentioning Jerusalem every Jewish holiday and live in Europe or N. Africa rather than migrate to Israel with a 99.9% chance of dying.

Except that the groups I previously mentioned actually DID make this choice because of their religious conviction.

If the Muslims were exiled for Mecca do you think they would settle for Uganda?

In two thousand years, and if they didn't care about Mecca in the meantime? Maybe. Either way, they would have no moral or legal claim on Mecca.

As for displacing the arabs, noone wanted to do that. As you know there were talks between Zionist leaders and ME leaders. The Zionist movement as a whole didn't strive to replace arabs with Jews, it was only some Zionist extremists who decided that Palestine cannot be split between Israel and the Palestinians.

The balfour declaration called for the creation of a jewish state. The alternatives would have been moving out or accepting a jewish overlord instead of a british. Neither alternative was particularly appealing to a people who endured incredible hardships during the firts world war just so they could achieve independence.

[CyberGnu]

Those were ultra-religious Orthodox Jews. The force that drove them to migrate to Israel was not nationalism, but a much stronger force - a strong sense of religion and the belief that migrating to Israel and studying Torah in Jerusalem would grant them a place in heaven.

And again you are proving my point nicely.

The key issue here is that the jewish people had 1400 years in which they could have returned, but instead choose a better life, which invalidates any claim on the land.

[CyberGnu]

Of course there are extremists on both sides. There were people in America who said they now want to kill every Muslim in the world, but if they are caught attacking a Muslim they are jailed. Same in Israel.
In fact not recently the Israeli police has cracked down on a gang of settlers that is responsible to the deaths of many Israeli Muslims, which they stabbed, as well as for many acts of sabotage of property owned by Muslims. Arafat, on his side, has done no such thing.

He did, actually. He arrested several hundred Hamas members. When Israel started rocketing prisons he was forced to let them out, however.

Furthermore, you are again ignoring that Israels breaking of the Oslo accords made it progrssively harder for him to take action against Hamas, until he couldn't do anything at all.

Arafat has been constantly saying in public that peace with Israel is stage one, whereas stage two is the total elimination of Israel by the terrorist network which he intended to build up in the Palestinian state.

And he has signed in paper that he acknowledges Israels right to exist. Please stop the tired propaganda...

[CyberGnu]

P.S. I think you're confusing the Likud with Shas and Moledet. The Likud may have harsh policies concerning Palestinians and the conflict but at least they don't make racist remarks like Shas and Moledet do.

Look, the goal of Likud is to establish a Grosse Israel, encompassing all of historical palestine. that puts them on the same level as Hamas, and ergo extremists. The existance of MORE extreme groups doesn't make their views more palatable.

[CyberGnu]

I can't give you any evidence of my claim other than the eye evidence that I've mentioned because honestly, I have no idea where I can get maps that show unused land. If I ever come across such a map I'd be happy to post it.

Maybe I misunderstood something here... You were actually alive in 1930? You saw this fertile, unused land with your own eyes?

Maybe you should visit Israel one day and see for yourself. Just drive around the unresidential roads, you'll see lots of unused land.

Well, that wouldn't do much good since today is 2002, roughly 70 years later than the period we are discussing...


So, barring you you being about ninety years old, I think we have established that you don't have any facts supporting your claim. I've posted on set of proof that disproves your claim, Kreuze has posted another.

Are you finally going to swallow your pride and admit that you are wrong?

[CyberGnu]

CyberGnu: You do realize that everything you say here can be applied to pretty much ANY people under oppression. Take a look at your own people in 80-100 AD. Does 'masada' mean anything to you?

End the occupation, and the propaganda will end too.



Shiber: The Sikari'im (the people of Masada) were considered extremists by the Jewish society. They were separatists and didn't want any contact with anyone who wasn't a Sikari'i, nor did any of the other Jews want contact with them. They were shunned, and their actions abolished. You can't possibly compare them with the Hamas.
Btw, I guess when you were told the story of Masada, the part about the Jewish historian (his name temporarily slipped my mind) who tried to convince them to end their resistance was omitted.

Please, don't turn into Siro. Focus. What was the point of my statement? Not whether the people of Masada were extremists or not.

The point was that any people under occupation will fight very hard to get rid of their occupiers. The jewish people fought the Roman empire! Plenty of jews died, but that didn't stop them from fighting.

[CyberGnu]

The latest books issued and approved by the current minister of education are blamed to be too pro-Zionism. The previous minister of education was blamed for approving books that were too pro-Palestinian, and for wanting to introduce the songs of Darwish, the Palestinian national poet, into the Israeli educational system and have every student study them in literature class.

Debate is unavoidable. You cannot find the balance that will satisfy both sides.

Which is why I'm saying you shouldn;t publish your own text books. Learn from impartial text books instead. Import american ones, which while low quality and slanted towards pro-israel at least should be a lot better than what you have right now...

[CyberGnu]

That's a completely different thing. I admit that secular marriage is not recognized as legal marriage in Israel (nor is it forbidden, though) but so is marrying in a reform ceremony or a civil marriage.
This is due to the fact that Israel grants its citizens with a freedom of religion, but not freedom _within_ your religion if you're Jewish. Jews may only marry in an Orthodox ceremony.
This is all a result of the fact that the Orthodox parties have a lot of political power. See, the balance between the left and the right wing in the parliament is roughly 50%-50%. The Orthodox can tip the balance even with a small number of seats in the parliament when they make deals with left or right-wing parties (the right-wing is usually more prone to accepting such deals). Basically, the Orthodox parties promise to support certain legislations made by the ruling party if that party would appoint a member of an Orthodox party as the minister of internal affairs and continue to allow the Orthodox foundations completele control over the marriage and divorce of Jews.
Sadly, this has gone on for quite some time. Today there are many parties that object the tactics employed by the Orthodox parties, both in the political left and right, and those parties get large amounts of votes as well as a lot of public support.

So you are conceeding Kruozes point. I think an apology is in order...

[DinoDoc]

Why does he owe you an apology? Kroeze was the oversensetive one. He's the one that should ask for it if it will make him feel better.

[Ned]

S. Kroeze, You make it sound so simple. But it is not.

"The only solution of tile problem put forward by the Arab Higher Committee was the immediate establishment of all independent Arab Government, which would deal with the 400,000 Jews now in Palestine as it thought fit."

This is a quote from the Peel Commisssion report.

The end to the Jewish presence in Palestine was and to, some extent, is still the ultimate Arab goal. A second, Final Solution.

You suggest that we Americans could round up all illegal Mexicans and simply return them to Mexico. But, there are tens of millions of them! There may be some lunatics who could advocate this, but can you imagine the human suffering this would cause if it were actuallly attempted? The mere advocacy of such a position is astoundingly racist.

But this is exactly what you and your Arab brethern were and still are advocating. The fate of the Jews in Palestine, if you had your way, would be the same fate they suffered at the hands of the Nazi's.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Except that the groups I previously mentioned actually DID make this choice because of their religious conviction.

Yes, except for them.
They spent all their time studying Torah and Talmud and lived off donations. They sent couriers to Europe and N. Africa once in a while to collect money in Jewish towns and Synagogues.
The average Jew couldn't raise donations nor would he live in an Orthodox society and study Torah and Talmud all day long. Therefore they are irrelevant to this case.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
And again you are proving my point nicely.
[/b]

How is that?

[Shiber]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
He did, actually. He arrested several hundred Hamas members.

And then freed them. If you don't believe me you can check the records and see that many Hamas members were killed, captured or conducted a suicide bombing while they were supposed to be in a Palestinian prison according to the Palestinian records.

Originally posted by CyberGnu
When Israel started rocketing prisons he was forced to let them out, however.

No, he was constantly freeing Hamas members before we ever touched their prisons.

The Palestinians were able to fool the European union for many years

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Furthermore, you are again ignoring that Israels breaking of the Oslo accords made it progrssively harder for him to take action against Hamas, until he couldn't do anything at all.

The Oslo agreement decreed that peace and normalization between Israel and the PLO should be made in stages. The first few stages required us to transfer certain lands to the PA, which we did, and the Palestinians were supposed to fight terrorism, which they didn't.
Anyway, you should ask Siro about it. He knows more about the Oslo agreement and the violations of this agreement than I do.

Originally posted by CyberGnu
And he has signed in paper that he acknowledges Israels right to exist. Please stop the tired propaganda...

And then, moments after, he made a press conference for arab journalists in which he clearly said that the agreement is bogus and that the PLO has not forgotten that it is obligated to destroy Israel and drive every Jew out of Palestine. You can check and you'll see it's true, every word of it. Or would you rather believe the same man who shook hands and kissed with Saddam Hussein during the gulf war when Iraq was launching missiles at Jewish population centers in Israel.