8 Children Killed in Israeli Attack

[CyberGnu]

Hey, Kroppie, another blow on nationalism?

It hasn't been mentioned, although I think it is a different way of showing my point here.... I've been proving it from the other end, showing the lack of a desire to return prior to the end of the 19'th century.

Your pinpointing of when this desire first surfaced fits well into the established chain of events, thanks

[Kropotkin]

Muxec vill självklart att vi skall ut och stegla papister igen, klart att det är fel att glömma sin historia.

[CyberGnu]

Hehehehehehe

Det aer laenge sen jag senast steglade en papist...

[Kropotkin]

För övrigt är en bra bok om sionismen och Israel Göran Rosenbergs (f.d. Chefredaktör för Moderna tider och Jude från Södertälje som själv bott i Israel som ung för att sedan bli Israel-kritisk i den nya vänstern) "Det förlorade landet" som finns som pocket.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
As I said, I just wanted to disprove your statement that there was lots of undeveloped land just waiting to be tilled.

In order to do that you'll need to attach maps and such from reliable sources. I'm afraid your current argument is not even remotely convincing. What's more convincing is that the British would definitely say such things to keep Israel theirs and their precious oil pipes under British sovereignity.
Had this been a disclosed paper and not one that was meant to be released in public your argument would have been more convincing.

Btw, there is in fact still plenty room for agriculture in Israel. On the way to the nearest shopping center I drive by large undeveloped fields which are prefectly fit for agriculture, and in some places you can still stand around and see good but undeveloped land stretching beyond the horizon in all directions.

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Pray tell, who should we believe? AFAIK, the only other sources from this ear are jewish or arab, neither of which is even remotely believable compared to the british official studies.

But, as Kreuze has asked a few dozen times now, if you don't agree with the british white paper, feel free to post something you consider supporting your view. If you can't find a source that does this, you should face the reality that you are in fact wrong....

I'm never ashamed to admit that I'm wrong when I realize I am. However, when you drive by evidence that support your words almost every day it's kind of hard to admit that you're wrong.
Besides, when you make a claim it is your duty to support it rather than your opposers' duty to disprove it.

P.S. I'm waiting for better proof for your point. If you can't provide any then you'll be the one to admit that you're wrong, or at least admit that you have no proper measures to convince me that you're right.

[S. Kroeze]

Originally posted by Shiber
Regarding mixed marriage:
In response to the following: "Yet is still surprises me that the legislator(parliament) did NOT decree by law";
Kroeze, you obviously didn't take law. If you did you would have known that in a Democratic regime citizens are allowed to do anything that is not forbidden by law. Law doesn't grant people the right to do things, it rather forbids them. Therefore there is no need to make a law that says mixed marriage is allowed because there is no law that forbids it.

Thank you again for your many kind words!
I also hope that the fact that you knew something that I didn't know, will contribute substantially to your self-respect and general happiness in life and will make you forget that you are living in a besieged country, based on colonial oppression.
Or perhaps you are even enjoying the circumstances, because you do probably belong to the ruling elite.

It is also true I didn't study law; nor did I pretend I did. Perhaps you are not used to it, but I am rather honest. After all, one cannot study all fields of knowledge.

On the subject of 'secular marriage' I have to disappoint you, though. Of course everyone can marry in private, but marriage has legal consequences, and when the government would not recognize the marriage as legally binding it is becomes useless. And all modern countries also keep a registry office.
So in a constitutional state the legislator has still to make a law of marriage. You already admitted that 'secular marriage' does not exist in Israel, so I will not give a source for it.

I could search in the Encyclopaedia which countries acknowledge 'secular marriage', but since you do not respect science anyway this is indeed rather a waste of time. It is a pity to be so young and so uninterested in the world around you. Enjoy Sharon and his many victims!

[CyberGnu]

Shiber, you've misunderstood one thing: Palestinian resistance is not originally against Israeli attacks but against Israeli occupation. Furthermore, there ARE extremists, but they exists on both sides. When you finally understand that the Israeli who shot Rabin is of the same mindset as a few of the really hardcore palestinian organizations, particularly Hamas, then you finally have a chance to understand the conflict.

In 1993, Arafats popularity was immense. He had established peace with Israel, a palestinian state seemed to be attainable. He staked his politicial future on peace with Israel leading to a palestinian state. Hamas, his political rivals, saw it differently. They wanted Israel eliminated, and the only way they could do that was to stop the peace, get Israel to continue its heavy handed occupation until eventually the rest of the muslim world rose up in arms.

Sadly, Israels failures to keep the promises in the Oslo treaty only benefited Hamas at the expense of Arafat, where it eventually got to the point where Arafat couldn't act against Hamas without losing popular support.


The only groups gaining on the current situation are the extremist groups in palestine, such as Hamas, and the extremist groups in Israel, such as Likud.

[CyberGnu]

Shiber, I've already posted proof: the british white paper.

As I said, if you don't agree with it, you will have to post something that agrees with you. Claiming that there is lots of land today doesn't prove anything, especially since Israel prides itself of making even the desert into fertile land...

Besides, you are making the claim that there was lots of unused land in palestine. I'm saying you are wrong. That I've proved my point is secondary, even if I hadn't done so you would still be required to back up your statement.

[CyberGnu]

BTW, Kroeze, I really anjoy your footnotes to Siro

[Shiber]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Somehow it seems the modren jews has gone from believing in the Torah to believing in the infallability of israeli text books.

It doesn't matter how well we prove that statements such as 'there was plenty of land available in palestine' or 'prior to 1950 there was no such thing as a palestinian' are patently false, the reply is always 'your source is biased/wrong/anti-semitic, and our textbooks are right because it says so in our textbooks'.

The paralells to say, creationists, are quite striking. Nothing we say will ever be accepted, because they know 'the truth'.

Of course, there are always dissenters. In the old days they were burned as heretics. In modern Israel they are merely shunned, branded as 'self-hating jews'.

But you can break out of it. Be critical. Don't accept statements without a proper source, barring a reductio in absurdum. And train your mind to accept the fact that when reality and preconceptions clash, reality wins every single time...

I criticize everything I read, CyberGnu. I'm not that gullible you know.
In fact I'm not the only person who does. It seems that whenever the Ministry of Education releases new history books it strikes a very loud public debate over their contents, where some would say the book is to pro-Zionism and others would say it's too pro-Palestinian.
As for accepting your sources, I don't discredit sources until I have reason to, and when one displays so much knowledge about the Zionist movement but then has no idea who Ahad Ha'am was or quotes sources that say mixed marriage is forbidden in Israel (which is absolutely not true! I've explained this in one of my previous posts) then you know he's been reading half-truths and rewritten history.

Kroeze: perhaps your sources said that Jews can't marry non-Jews in an Orthodox ceremony and you intentionally or unintentionally twisted it around. Please double-check all the facts that you rely on.

[CyberGnu]

About the Palestinian society:
The Palestinian society is much different than yours. According to your logic the Palestinians want peace because it's profitable in terms of cost-effectiveness. However, you have to understand that the Palestinians think much different than you do.
First of all, they are raised to value martyrdom more than anything else from day one. Dying for Allah and the Palestinian cause is the greatest of all honors. When you see Palestinian schoolchildren chanting "more than anything else we wish to die for Palestine" and "we wish to destroy the Jewish nation" in class you'll understand what I mean.
Second of all, they don't think in terms of cost-effectiveness, so forget that idea. They don't value life either like us western people do. In fact they mock the Israelis because we consider life the most sacred value of all (they are made to think that valuing life makes one weak and feeble).
Finally, they believe in maximalistic goals and resent all forms of compromise. They are raised not to compromise on anything until they have all of Palestine and the state of Israel is completely eradicated.

You do realize that everything you say here can be applied to pretty much ANY people under oppression. Take a look at your own people in 80-100 AD. Does 'masada' mean anything to you?

End the occupation, and the propaganda will end too.

[Kropotkin]

Originally posted by Shiber
Btw, there is in fact still plenty room for agriculture in Israel. On the way to the nearest shopping center I drive by large undeveloped fields which are prefectly fit for agriculture, and in some places you can still stand around and see good but undeveloped land stretching beyond the horizon in all directions.

Oh I wonder what happend to those that used to use that land.

[CyberGnu]

In fact I'm not the only person who does. It seems that whenever the Ministry of Education releases new history books it strikes a very loud public debate over their contents, where some would say the book is to pro-Zionism and others would say it's too pro-Palestinian.

There is a difference between constructuve critisism and just plain critisism.

Again, the paralls to creationism. The same happens in parts of the US when a new biology text book is proposed... Just the fact that there IS a debate is a sad statement on the objectivity of the Israeli school system.

Maybe you should avoid publishing your own books altogether, and only use american books. (well, since you might want some quality, get someone to translate swedish text books)

[CyberGnu]

BTW, IIUIC, Kreuze isn't saying secular marriage is forbidden but that it is not recognized legally. Different cause, but the end result is the same.

Furthermore, don't make the mistake of equating not knowing one tidbit of information with not knowing anything.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by orange
A state founded on the idea of a nation for one group of people or religion is ethnic fascism, if you ask me.

Originally posted by orange
Mandatory military service for males...

We don't really have a choice here.
In fact there are times when regular troops are not enough and the military has to draft some citizens. Defending the Israeli borders against guerilla attacks is a tough job you know. Perhaps you should join the Israeli military, just for a week or two, and see how hard it is to defend Israel from hundreds of attack every day, be they attempts to cross the border and perform a suicide bombing or shooting at Israeli towns from nearby arab towns or mortar fire.

Originally posted by orange
Palestinian second class citizenship across the board...

You'll need evidence to support this (false) claim.

Originally posted by orange
Sharon and his actions alone, however, make a case against Israel as a free and democratic state

No they don't. Democratic countries are obliged to give their citizens their democratic rights and freedoms, but they're not obliged to treat others who are not citizens of the state the same way, especially when you're at war with them.
And as a side note, America has made far worse actions in Afghanistan and I don't remember anyone saying this shakes the foundations of American Democracy. Maybe this has something to do with the fact that the Afghans don't have the kind of U.N. lobby that the Palestinians have.