8 Children Killed in Israeli Attack

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Shiber
You're gonna have to wait a long time. You are obviously desperate for someone to talk back to you, so let me break it to you: I won't be one of them. You don't seem like a very fun person. One of the things that convinced me of this was that after everything I said in the 3 pages of this thread and the other 3 pages of the thread named 'Acceptable Losses' you still think I condone this action. Oh wait, I forgot - you probably skipped through all my messages.
So to sum up, I'm not going to play your game. However if anyone else ever makes any of your arguments I'd be happy to answer them to him/her.

I did read your responses - I wasn't talking to you when I made my initial post unless of course you are Siro's D/L, which is highly likely considering your posting style and patterns. Why else do you think I was talking especially to you when there's any number of posters on this thread?

Besides under the thin veneer of you 'not condoning this action', it does actually seem that you don't actually condemn it either...

I mean you say you don't agree with it because innocent Palestinians die, but then you do not agree that targeting an inhabited apartment block killing over a dozen civilians (mostly children) and injuring over a hundred more - just to get one person - is a terrorist attack!?!?!

What if some ultra right wing Jewish settlers had got some info and fired a rocket killing these people? They would have been condemned as terrorists! Just because the person who pulled the trigger was wearing an IDF uniform doesn't mean he wasn't a terrorist...

As for whether terrorising the civilians by killing them is an intentional terror tactic on the part of Sharon - it most certain is a by-product that the IDF seems to have no intention of preventing...

So again we read between the lines and your words are again found wanting!

The only remotely worthwhile thing you've said so far is that you appear to be against the settlements - but even then you seem to be against the settlements about as much as Bush is against the latest round of company accounting scandals... Sure he talks a good fight, but you can bet your bottom dollar he's not going to do anything about it...

Talk is cheap, Shiber (see I am talking to you this time!). What you say sounds encouraging on the face of it, but not very convincing when one reads between the lines.

As for your interesting claims about the settlements, here's an article from an Israeli source which seems to contradict your claims:

Today, B'Tselem hosted a press conference to release its new report, Land Grab: Israel's Settlement Policy in the West Bank. B'Tselem's researcher, Yehezkel Lein, presented the report and the accompanying map which details the built-up areas and the land reserved for future development of West Bank settlements.


International humanitarian law prohibits an occupying power from transferring citizens from its own territory to the occupied territory. An occupying power is also prohibited from undertaking permanent changes in the occupied area, unless they are undertaken for the benefit of the local population or are for urgent military needs. Israel's settlement policy violates these regulations.


B'Tselem's report was published following extensive research and despite difficulties in obtaining information from the Civil Administration. The report makes available to the public for the first time comprehensive information regarding the extent of human rights violations resulting from the establishment of settlements in the West Bank.


The research reveals that while the built-up areas of the settlements constitute only 1.7% of the land in the West Bank, the municipal boundaries are over three times as large: 6.8%. Regional councils constitute an additional 35.1%. Thus, a total of 41.9% of the area in the West Bank is controlled by the settlements.


The report presents the various mechanisms by which Israel's governments have taken control of land and have encouraged Israeli citizens to move to settlements. These techniques include the de facto annexation of the settlements to Israel, the planning system which invests significant resources to expand the settlements, and the granting of numerous economic incentives intended to raise the standard of living in the settlements. For example, in the year 2000, Jewish local councils in the West Bank received grants from the government averaging sixty-five percent more those received by their counterparts inside Israel. Settlement regional councils received grants averaging 165% more than their counterparts in Israel.


Given that the settlements are illegal, and in light of the myriad human rights violations that they cause, B'Tselem calls on the Israeli government to work to dismantle all of the settlements. “From a human rights perspective, there is no other conclusion that can be reached,” said Yehezkel Lein, author of the report, at today's press conference.


Until the process of evacuation is undertaken, B'Tselem calls on the Israeli government to take a number of interim steps to minimize the violation of human rights and international law. Among other steps, the Israeli government should:


Halt all new construction in the settlements;


Halt the planning and construction of new by-pass roads;


Return to Palestinian communities all the non-built-up areas attached to settlements and regional councils;


Halt the policy of providing incentives to encourage Israeli citizens to move to the settlements, and allocate resources instead to encourage settlers to relocate to within the borders of the State of Israel.

They're almost there - they've almost got half the territory already...

As for attacking the person instead of the argument, it's wrong according to the rules of proper debate, but you have to admit it's much, much more fun. Don't you think so my emoticon-loving friend?

That's the Israeli POV in a nutshell isn't it - it may be wrong/illegal/criminal/murder etc, but tough luck!

Thanks for that passing comment Shiber, seems to me that Halo of yours is getting rather wobbly...

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Shiber
So what? Every Palestinian baby is a potential terrorist, considering the propaganda and brainwashing they expose from birth. That doesn't make it more justified to kill them, not until there's proof they're actually involved in any terrorist acts anyway.
Or have I completely missed your point?

Just to expand on that, I'm right in thinking that every man and woman in Israel has to complete active military service?

Wouldn't that make every Israeli a legitimate target as even the children will eventually serve in the IDF also?

If that's the case, technically there are no real civilians in Israel...

I do agree with Shiber's point though:

That doesn't make it more justified to kill them, not until there's proof they're actually involved in any terrorist acts anyway.

Just because you serve in the army of an illegally occupying force doesn't mean you agree with their policies - just like German soldiers in WWII shouldn't be tarred with the same Nazi brush as their leaders.

Of course I do admire the sheer courage and determination of Israel's conscientious objectors - that least they have the corage of their convictions!

[Vesayen]

And how many hundreds of Israeli civilians were blown up by suicide bombers?

IF they were the 8 children of the leader of Hamas, we know how they'd turn out, I find it hard to shed a tear for the children of a terrorist.

[CyberGnu]

Well, shiber, there are your 'palestinians are just animals anyway'.

[Vesayen]

Nope they arent, but any of them which believein terrorism are.

Im sure those children were already indoctrinated to go kill pregnant women like their father, I wont shed a tear for them.

[Ned]

If there is any good to come of this, perhaps the PALs will understand the pain the Israeli's feel when innocent civilians are killed.

It is really time to stop killing civilians.

[CyberGnu]

Im sure those children were already indoctrinated to go kill pregnant women like their father, I wont shed a tear for them.

Yeah, that two month old baby could already field strip a Kalashnikov in less than 16 seconds...


But thanks Vesayen. It is people like you who show why we have to vigorously defend the rights of the palestinian people.

[CyberGnu]

Ned, you really think so?

I'm willing to bet good money that they only feel more hate...

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by CyberGnu


Yeah, that two month old baby could already field strip a Kalashnikov in less than 16 seconds...


But thanks Vesayen. It is people like you who show why we have to vigorously defend the rights of the palestinian people.

The rights to kill unarmed innocent civilians?

I'll check this thread tommorow.

[CyberGnu]

The right to live their lives out from under Israels iron-shod heel.

Rhe right of their own nation where they won't be persecuted because of what their parentage is.

You know, the same rights jews fought for.

But I guess that only applies to the master race, correct?

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
That's a nice bull****.

So you admit it's bullsh*t!

I'm waiting for answers on 1,000s of my posts which you failed to reply to in the last two years. But that's what you always did - appeared, posted nonsense and disappeared.

Unlike you who has the time to post 1,000's of times on Apolyton about ME, I do not as I have a life!

When I am around I reply to your posts point by point - I've had you admit that Sharon is responsible for Sabra and Shatilla (and is therefore a War Criminal), I've had you admit that Israel attacked the USS Liberty on purpose, I've even gotten you to admit that the Settlements are wrong from time to time... Just cause I don't answer every one of your multitudes of apologist posts doesn't mean anything. I can extract from you what I want, then I walk away leaving you posting more and more nonsense. You seem to be under the mistaken believe that if you post more material more times that your opponent, you are the winner of the argument.

Never have you read any discussion in the thread or replied to it, except when people told you to f*ck off.

I simply nailed your behaviour which makes you angry.

I'm angry!? That says more about you than it does me that you think your lame attempts at insulting me could possibly anger me...

All it does is show that you know you cannot answer my points - even in your twisted apologist mind you know that Sharon launched an attack that murdered a large number of children at the precise time that Hamas was considering stopping it's attacks! Sharon has perfectly timed his strike to ensure that this destructive cycle of violence will continue to it's next stage!

Incidentally, weren't Hamas a minor political party in the PLO until the Israelis started funding them in an effort to topple Arafat in the '80's?

So really Israel is murdering innocent civilians to take out it's own rogue former operatives!

The best thing you did to reply to my points was ignore them and post unrealted quotes from other documents about other topics.

But you can play the victim. Arafat would be proud.

Your point appears to be that you are glad that this terrorist leader is dead - therefore you condone the killing of innocent children.

I don't wan't to waste my leg on your sorry behind. It's too stoopid

Because you know that if you answer my question it's going to raise some very uncomfortable questions about how Israel has admitted to killing about as many Palestinian civilians 'accidentally' as the Palestinians have blown up in suicide attacks!!!

That's only the ones Israel admits to as well - not to mention all the journalists it's murdered along the way too!

This is from your own words Siro - not mine, I'm just filling in the obvious blanks!

So I ask you again, I would like you to justify why Israel has killed as many people by 'accident' as the Palestinian suicide bombers? Simple question...

No it wasn't the same thread, especially since I haven't said that.

Well not in those same exact words, but the meaning was there - don't worry you can deny it all you like but enough of us were there to read it!

You adapted yourself to your enviroment by lowering your class and smarts - which, if you did so, wasn't too high to begin with.
So to be popular you've decided to "go down to the people" and now you feel comfortable there.

I however, managed to find friends of equally high IQ and EQ. So I have both wits and friends. You only have friends, but with such manners as you demonstrate in the ME threads, probably not much either.

Well, seeing as I regularly whup your arse, if mine's not too high to begin with, I hate to think what yours is...

See again you're making slanderous remarks when you don't even have the faintest idea about my background except that about fifteen years ago I made a better effort to get on with people. It's just the same as so many of your threads...

[blackice]

A new comprehensive study by the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism (ICT) reveals some startling trends by breaking the death tolls down into sub-segments -- e.g. age, gender, and whether or not they were combatants.

The study shows that while the majority of Palestinian deaths in the conflict are combatants, Israeli fatalities are 80 percent noncombatants.

Researchers also found that Palestinians are directly responsible for the deaths of at least 185 of their own number -- one out of every eight Palestinians killed in the conflict thus far. (In the previous wave of Palestinian violence during the late 1980s, about 800 Palestinians were killed by other Palestinians as "suspected collaborators" -- amounting to about one-third of the total death toll.)

ICT researchers also found that the proportion of women in the Israeli death toll is about 30 percent. By contrast, Palestinian fatalities are overwhelmingly 95 percent male. All total, 61 Palestinian females have been killed, compared to 160 Israeli females.

Another great disproportion exists amongst noncombatants aged 40 and over, where 154 Israelis have been killed, compared to 69 Palestinians.

* * *

Unfair reporting of the casualty count has long been a thorn in the side of media watch groups. Scores of Palestinians have been wounded by Palestinian-perpetrated bus bombings. Other Palestinians have been killed or wounded while making bombs which detonated prematurely. Other Palestinian deaths were later discovered to be due intra-Palestinian crime-related activity, or even to traffic accidents.

Last year, The New York Times published an illustrated graph, comparing Jewish deaths and Arab deaths in the conflict. Many HonestReporting readers wrote to complain that the graph was misleading, and the response from Bill Borders of The Times was surprisingly curt and dismissive: "The graphs are correct because everyone that they count as dead is in fact dead. All of them."

Teen Newsweek, a magazine distributed to middle school students across America, published a chart illustrating the number of Palestinian and Israeli children killed since 1987. The Palestinian numbers, represented in bright red, many times exceed Israeli losses, shown in a less visible yellow. There is no explanation of circumstances how these children died. The implication is that there is equivalency -- even though the Palestinian children were killed while attempting martyrdom in the context of violent attacks on Israeli forces, while the Israeli children were killed while sitting on a public bus or in a cafe, blown up by a Palestinian suicide bomber.

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=439

[CyberGnu]

even though the Palestinian children were killed while attempting martyrdom in the context of violent attacks on Israeli forces

Yeah, after field stripping his Kalashnikov, that two month old used to go out and rip out the throat of Israeli soldiers with his bare gums. We'd better kill all those palestinian two months olds right now, just in case there are any more Hamas-pre-toddlers.


Just out of curiosity, does 'honestreporting' condemnd their own website anywhere? Or is the name just another propaganda trick?

[DanS]

There are a couple of things wrong with this attack.

The primary one is that the Israelis didn't even make a pretense for trying to minimize casualties of bystanders. Not only is this wrong, it's willful negligence in any event.

Second, it shows an ad hoc target selection process. A targeting protocol is essential, because then you can take into account risks, such as negative world reaction.

Third, it's bad timing. Can't this government keep its finger off the trigger for a couple of days while things are moving forward on negotiations? Is one part of the government battling for control of the agenda over the other?

[KrazyHorse]

Bush actually had to slap their wrist today. I was surprised at that...