8 Children Killed in Israeli Attack

[blackice]

CyberGnu "cute"

now take the time to read the report they were refering to.

[Roland]

Originally posted by Ned
Roland, I am glad you now understand why we declare war against you in WWI.

You're talking bollocks. First you declared war on Germany (Austria did little submarine warfare in the atlantic for some odd reason). Second US civilians voluntarily and despite explicit warning went into a warzone - people just happen to live in Gaza. Third the Brit policy of undermining the warning system was one reason behind attacks without warning (convoys were another IIRC). And fourth no matter what the moral or legal situation, the actual motives were mostly different and far more complex.

[Ned]

I forget the details, but US troops did end up fighting the Austrians in Italy, IIRC. Who declared war on whom?

[Roland]

IIRC the US declared war on Austria in early (march?) 1918.

[CyberGnu]

well, Ice, I read the report,and Oh my Lord!!! Turns out that the report is a pile of fetid dingos kidneys!!! And here I was expecting an unbiased report of high quality, but what I found was an utterly biased, albeit brilliantly written, propaganda piece.

Don't get me wrong here. I admire this piece. It is a piece of work that would have left Goebbels not only proud, but stunned. It weaves in assurances of impartiality while 'not making moral judgements'.

However, it also turns out that their raw data, if even correct (there is no source list apart from their assurances that they've compiled data from arab news agencies, human rights organizations and media both domestic and international), is very carefully massaged.

They have divided up the casualties in several categories:

Non-Combatant
A non-combatant is an innocent bystander – a person whose death or injury has no justification other than nationality or ethnicity.

Health Related
A “health related” fatality is someone who died from a cause only indirectly related to violence – for example, due to a heart attack following an incident, tear-gas inhalation, or a roadblock delay that prevented an ilperson from receiving medical treatment in a timely manner.

Probable Combatant
A “probable combatant” is someone killed at a location and at a time during which an armed confrontation was going on, who appears most likely – but not certain – to have been an active participant in the fighting. For example, in many cases where an incident has resulted in a large number of Palestinian casualties, the only information available is that an individual was killed when Israeli soldiers returned fire in response to shots fired from a particular location. While it is possible that the person killed had not been active in the fighting and just happened to be in the vicinity of people who were, it is reasonable to assume that the number of such coincidental deaths is not particularly high. Where the accounts of an incident appear to support such a coincidence, the individual casualty has been given the benefit of the doubt, and assigned a non-combatant status.

The status of “probable combatant” has also been assigned to people who knowingly took some action which would lead to increased danger, such as entering an area in which fighting was going on or which security officials had declared off-limits.

Uniformed Non-Combatant
A “uniformed non-combatant” is a non-civilian, but is not actively involved in the conflict. This category can include civil police as well as soldiers in uniform but not at their post.

Violent Protester
A “violent protester” may be a civilian, but has chosen to take an active and violent part in the conflict – such as rioting or vigilante activity.

Protestor Unkown
A “protestor unknown” is anyone who was killed during a protest, for whom information as to violent behavior is unavailable.

Full Combatant
A “full combatant” is a soldier on active duty, an active member of a terrorist group, or a civilian independently choosing to perpetrate an armed attack on the opposing side. In general, rock-throwers are not considered to be combatants; an exception to this generalization would be, for example, someone dropping large rocks from a bridge onto fast-moving traffic. A rioter throwing "Molotov cocktails", grenades, or the like can be considered a full combatant.
Mere possession of a weapon does not imply combatant status. A civilian driving with a weapon in his/her car, or a pedestrian with a holstered pistol, is normally considered a noncombatant. However, a civilian who encounters a terror attack in progress and draws his/her weapon in an attempt to stop or prevent the attack is a combatant once the weapon is out of its holster.

Suspected Collaborator
This is a special category for Palestinian or Israeli Arabs targeted by militants who suspect them of aiding Israel.

Unknown
In a large number of cases, the information at hand has been insufficient to decide the circumstances of death for a given Palestinian casualty. As the project continues and additional information is accumulated, we believe that the number of “unknowns” will steadily decrease.


When we divide fatalities into the broader categories of “Combatant” and “Noncombatant”, only “Full Combatants”, “Probable Combatants”, and “Violent Protestors” are counted as combatants. All others, including “Unknowns”, are considered to be noncombatants.


Of special note here is A “uniformed non-combatant” is a non-civilian, but is not actively involved in the conflict. This category can include civil police as well as soldiers in uniform but not at their post.

So a soldier killed on the bus is a non-combatant, while the Hamas leader that was recently killed is a combatant.

Furthermore, they also included the mysterious category Probable Combatant
A “probable combatant” is someone killed at a location and at a time during which an armed confrontation was going on, who appears most likely – but not certain – to have been an active participant in the fighting.

This means that, for example, every single person who died in Jenin can be considered a Probable Combatant, and thus included in the 'combatant' category.

So, the conclusion is that after artificially inflating the number of Israeli "non-combatatans" as well as the number of palestinian "combatants", they reach parity. Wow.

Well, Ice, that is what a PhD gets you... Vast experience in telling the junk from the gold...

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
The right to live their lives out from under Israels iron-shod heel.

Rhe right of their own nation where they won't be persecuted because of what their parentage is.

You know, the same rights jews fought for.

But I guess that only applies to the master race, correct?

The U.N. mandates Israel land, and palestinian land.

Israeli's say cool we like that.

Palestinians and their neighbors scream JIHAD! Well push them into the sea!

Jordan tells the Palestinians to get the hell out of Dodge, while they go in and kill all the Israeli's, they can go back after.

Jordan goes in and attacks, Jordan gets its ass kicked.

Arab Israeli wars continue for 30 years, Israel never being the agitator and always kicking ass, even when attacked on the most holy day of the year, Yom Kippur.

Im sorry that after the palestinians declared a genocidal Jihad you made the TERRIBLE mistake of failing to carry it out, because if you declare Jihad on someone and then fail, your not justified to then act like innocent civilians under a foreign army because your not.

The provisions were made for 2 states by the U.N..

The Israeli's agreed.

The arabs didnt.

The arabs attacked.

The arabs got their ass's kicked-so now they act like they are innocent.

Simple as that.

[Rogan Josh]

The alternative view of events:

Jewish terrorists cause havoc in Palestine, demanding their own state until:

The U.N. mandates Israel land, and palestinian land.

Israeli's say cool we like that.

Palestinians and their neighbors scream STOP THEIF! They are stealing our land, so we had better try and push them into the sea!

Jordan tells the Palestinians to get the hell out of the war zone, while they go in and win back the land, they can go back after.

Jordan goes in to defend Palestine, Jordan gets its ass kicked.

When the war is over, Israel refuses to let the refugees return to Israel and reclaim their land.

Arab Israeli wars continue for 30 years, Israel always being the agitator, by virtue of it holding Palestinian land, and always kicking ass rather than finding some reasonable solution based on compromise.


There are two sides to every story....

[Al'Kimiya]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
Palestinians and their neighbors scream STOP THEIF! They are stealing our land, so we had better try and push them into the sea!

Except that most of the land was uninhabited and didn't belong to anyone. This is like claiming land on the moon.

[Ned]

Rogan, I think your version is very close to what I hear from Palestinians on why they are fighting. The underlying assumption is that it, meaning Palestine, is their land.

But, when we say "their," what do we mean?

I had mostly assumed that this meant "Arab," since prior to 1917, there was no Palestine at all. Even the line demarking Jordan from Palestine was drawn in the '20s.

But, from this point of view, Jews and Arabs had equal rights to the land in Palestine because both were historical and current occupants of the land.

However, in another thread, some time ago, the "truth" finally was spoken. This is Muslim land. The Turks, after all, were Muslim and the Sultan was Caliph. Viewed in this light, the Jihad against Israel is exactly like the Jihad against the crusader states that was waged by both Turk and Arab Muslims.

In a sense, it is also the same battle the Ayatollah waged against American in 1979 in Iran - to get the Infidel out of Muslim land. It is currently being waged against the West by OBL.

Rogan, we, meaning the liberal Infidel West, have a common enemy with Israel in her fight for survival.

[Sirotnikov]

Jewish terrorists cause havoc in Palestine

Ooh yeah.

Those poor trains

And haven't we agreed that military targets are legitimate in freedom fighting?

Jewish resistance never targetted civilians.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
So you admit it's bullsh*t!

You know what I said and that i mean it about you.

Unlike you who has the time to post 1,000's of times on Apolyton about ME, I do not as I have a life!

well if you're not going to address this seriously, I'm not going to argue with you as it is pointless.

I never know if you're coming back and you usually don't come back. This thread is an exception.

What up, lost your friends?

When I am around I reply to your posts point by point - I've had you admit that Sharon is responsible for Sabra and Shatilla (and is therefore a War Criminal),

I admit that Sharon has responsability or liability. choose the word.

That doesn't make him a criminal.

Let's take a school for example. One kid has killed another while the teacher wasn't looking. Is the teacher responsible? Sure. Is he a criminal? nope.

As I've said - I hold him accountable for it and I think it was right that he was demoted and had 19 years of political willderness.

I've had you admit that Israel attacked the USS Liberty on purpose,

No you haven't.

I admit that there is a slight such possibility, but only in a very extreme case.

I do not actually believe that Israel attacked the USS liberty on purpose.

Furthermore it's nice you hold me accountable as the official Israeli spokesman. If I say something it must be true then, no?

I've even gotten you to admit that the Settlements are wrong from time to time...

I admit that there are problematic issues with it, and generally there is injustice caused by them being there.

However, currently they serve a strategic goal and should stay there until a peace agreement comes.

Just cause I don't answer every one of your multitudes of apologist posts doesn't mean anything.

It means you choose to ignore what I write and post new nonsense.

I can extract from you what I want, then I walk away leaving you posting more and more nonsense.

No, you can have me say something and attempt to twist my words like you are doing to anything you ever read about the ME.

You seem to be under the mistaken believe that if you post more material more times that your opponent, you are the winner of the argument.

I hold the opinion that if you quit - you know you've lost.

You seem to hold the opinion that if you ignore what I say and keep adding moronic accusations - you win.

I'm angry!? That says more about you than it does me that you think your lame attempts at insulting me could possibly anger me...

Maybe it does. You do appear angry and agitated most of the time.

Maybe if you weren't so uptight and pompous we could actually discuss something.

All it does is show that you know you cannot answer my points - even in your twisted apologist mind you know that Sharon launched an attack that murdered a large number of children at the precise time that Hamas was considering stopping it's attacks!

do me a favour - don't be such a clear biggot.

When have Hamas actually said that they are considering to stop attacks?

If you read the actual text, they are saying that if Israel completely withdraws, they may consider stopping terracts in Israel-proper.

that' the problem with your biggotry - you take every word by Hamas for granted, and twist everything Israel says and does.

Sharon launched an attack on Hamas during a declared hostility against it. Israel has never talked to Hamas and never accepted any of it's demands or agreements.

So stop being so damn bigotted and stop pretending that Hamas' words mean anything.

As for the attack - the military is responsible for preventing casualties - not sharon. Sharon says "kill that terrorist". If the military ****ed up, it's their fault.

Sharon has perfectly timed his strike to ensure that this destructive cycle of violence will continue to it's next stage!

I want to see you just once say something about Arafat's Al-Aqsa brigades disrupting the peace process.

Furthermore - it only appears to you that there was calm - infact, we continued to capture suicide bombers. So for every suicide bomber that explodes, there are usually 5 that were caught.

So don't preach me about Israel being the cause of the cycle of violence.

Incidentally, weren't Hamas a minor political party in the PLO until the Israelis started funding them in an effort to topple Arafat in the '80's?

Hamas was ever a party in the PLO?? They resisted them.

And I only heard very alternative rumors about Israel funding Hamas. From sources similar to those who blame Israeli Mossad for 9/11. So I am skeptical about it.

So really Israel is murdering innocent civilians to take out it's own rogue former operatives!

Well, that's a long shot. You're making a conclusion based on unsubstantiated dubious evidence. And then you say that I'm twisting the truth???

[q]Your point appears to be that you are glad that this terrorist leader is dead - therefore you condone the killing of innocent children.[/q
Nope.

I'm content he is dead.
I condem the way in which it was done which caused the death of innocent children.

Because you know that if you answer my question it's going to raise some very uncomfortable questions about how Israel has admitted to killing about as many Palestinian civilians 'accidentally' as the Palestinians have blown up in suicide attacks!!!

Look at the difference.
Israel kills accidentally.
Palestinians kill on purpose.

Is an accident the same as first degree murder?

That's only the ones Israel admits to as well - not to mention all the journalists it's murdered along the way too!

huh?
There was, I think, one journalist killed by mistake.

Journalists can become accidental victims, just like innocent by standers. Infact they are more prone to it because they usually try to get where the action is.

If Israeli bullets only hit palestinians and not anybody else, then I'd be suspicious of these being accidents.

But the truth is, that Israeli fire often hit Israelis as well.

This is from your own words Siro - not mine, I'm just filling in the obvious blanks!

Erm... you're creating imaginary blanks and filling them in with fairy tales.

Hardly impressive.

So I ask you again, I would like you to justify why Israel has killed as many people by 'accident' as the Palestinian suicide bombers? Simple question...

Ok.

Israel and the Palestinians are at war.

Palestinians target innnocent civiliand and hit them. This is both illegitimate and wrong.

Israel targets militants, which is legitimate, and often hits bystanders by mistake, which is acceptable in war, even though it's wrong and should be minimized.


It's unreasonable to expect that in a war, no innocent bystander will get hurt.

However, when innocent bystanders become actual targets, that's when it's wrong.

Therefore I still hold the opinion that Israeli attacks on terrorists are justified, and if all measures were taken, some civilian death is acceptable.

However, attacks targetted at civilians are never ever ever justified.

Well not in those same exact words, but the meaning was there - don't worry you can deny it all you like but enough of us were there to read it!

You're imaginening things again.

Well, seeing as I regularly whup your arse, if mine's not too high to begin with, I hate to think what yours is...

You? whup? my arse?

You can't find your arsehole, how can you find and whoop mine?

See again you're making slanderous remarks when you don't even have the faintest idea about my background except that about fifteen years ago I made a better effort to get on with people. It's just the same as so many of your threads...

I know you decided to become stoopider , and I see the results

[/QUOTE]

[Shiber]

WARNING! Long post ahead (well, duh...).

AFAIK all of this is true, correct me wherever you find I was wrong / deceptive:

- Jews are prosecuted around the world just for the fact that they are jews for nearly two thousand years. They are randomly massacred, they get very little rights if any, they are often disallowed to celebrate their holidays and act according to their traditions and they have to pay protection taxes to the authorities, if they're lucky.

- Roughly a hundred years ago: Jews get sick of it all, decide that it's impossible to fight off antisemity and/or live safely within other nationalities, as Jews are the only nationality which are scattered throughout Europe rather than have a territory of their own and therefore are considered a plague by most Europeans and are mistreated. Jews collect money, mostly from donations as most Jews were very poor that time, buy lands from the Turkish empire (yes, buy, not steal) which the Turks never wanted or had any use for anyway (completely uninhabited lands, most of which were on or near swamplands) and begin to build villages and an agricultural infrastructure.
Jews are treated unfairly by the authorities, which did nothing to prevent attacks from raiders and pirates and charged the Jews for a lot of bribe money to get anywhere. Despite all this, the Jews were persistant, as this was better than returning to Europe.

- Slowly, more Jews migrate to Israel/Palestine mostly due to the harsh conditions they had to endure in Europe and due to Zionist ideology, according to which the Jews must establish a national home of undefined borders in Israel (not for all Jews to live in, but as a place Jews can relate to) so they will cease to be an anomal nation.
Lands are bought from the Turks mostly thanks to donations.
Current tennants see the Jews settling in their precious completely uninhabited swamplands and desertlands and decide they don't like this one bit, so they continually harass Jewish villages and towns and the Jews just barely manage to defend themselves. Wherever Jewish defenses fail, innocent women and children are horribly massacred by the arabs.

- The Brits take over Israel after WWI and soon thereafter limit Jewish immigration to very small numbers. Now illegal immigrants are sent back to Europe back to their oppressors, and after WWII began straight to the hands of the Nazis, which transferred them to work or death camps.
Jews respond by conducting acts of resistance without actually killing Brit soldiers (excluding the Etzel group which did, but they were extremists and were condemned by most of the Jewish population both for using illegitimate measures and for harming the cause, which was to enable Jews to migrate to Israel/Palestine), e.g. sinking patrol ships, blowing up radar devices, derailing slow army supply trains etc' (all of which didn't result in any British casualties, as mentioned above).

- Post-holocaust: the U.N. decides that the Jews deserve a national home to keep them safe from such atrocities as the holocaust in the future and approve several committees whose job is to suggest possible ways of splitting Palestine between the Jews and the Palestinians. Different committees make different suggestions, none of which is accepted by the Palestinians as they declare they are not willing to compromise on any of the land. Some proposals outlined a Jewish state which was merely ~20% of Palestine, which the Jews accepted but the Palestinians rejected.

- 1947: The U.N. approves a Jewish state which is roughly half the size of Palestine (don't be mislead though, about half our territories were desert lands). The Palestinians and arabs as a whole protest.

- 1948: The Jewish state of Israel is founded, while the Palestinians make no similar declarations of a state of their own in the other half of Palestine. The Israeli declaration of independence is immediately followed by a declaration of war by all surrounding arab states backed up by the rest of the arab world. Palestinians move to Jordan, thinking that they could soon return and find out that all the Jews are gone.
The arabs lose the war, and all wars therafter until this very day.

[Guardian]

Israeli officials are now claiming they "did not know" that the attack would harm civilians...

Wait a minute... let me get this straight...

They dropped a 2000 lb bomb (that's almost a ton of explosives!) into a residential area, and they say they did not know it would hurt civilians ??

Kind of makes you wonder where those people left their heads before going to work that morning, doesn't it?

[Shiber]

Saying they did not know is very inaccurate. Let me give you the whole story and tell you who is to blame and for what.

The Air Force: blamed for choosing a 1kg bomb for this operation. However still, the bomb was VERY precise and
wouldn't have killed anyone unless the terrorist's wife and children were at home and unless this was a standard apartments block and not a block with many improvised apartments that were built between existing ones and with barely no space between them, which leads us to:

The General Security Service (was in charge of intelligence in this operation): blamed for conducting sloppy espionage which determined that:
A. The terrorist's wife and children will not be at home at the time of the attack.
B. There will be no other civilians within the abovementioned laser-guided bomb's blast radius nor will any nearby apartments be severely damaged, resulting in the death of nearby tennants.
Surely some high-ranked officer is going to get relieved due to this misfortunate screw-up.

Sharon: blamed for making a bad choice of words. He didn't know this attack would hurt others nor does he receive this information, he merely authorizes operations. If the army officials told him that it's very unlikely that civilians will be hurt in this attack then that's all he knew. Blaming Sharon for knowing that this attack would hurt civilians and authorizing it anyway shows of a completely misunderstanding of the structure of the Israeli government and military and the process of decision making.

P.S. A lot of people try to put Sharon's words out of context. When he was saying that this was a successful operation, he meant that it has achieved its mission goal: to eliminate a terrorist leader which is responsible for the deaths of over a hundred Israeli citizens. He did not relate to the other Palestinian casualties, though I think he should have.

[CyberGnu]

Siro, you still didn't answer my question.