8 Children Killed in Israeli Attack

[Imran Siddiqui]

Since 2000 can you detail every Palestinian killed... the numbers are 3 TIMES that of Israelis.

[S. Kroeze]

Dearest Sirotnikov,

You raised several interesting points, but since my time is limited I will only address part of your post.

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

I am still eagerly waiting for the day when Sirotnikov, the ONLY reliable expert on the subject of Jewish, Zionist and Israeli history, will -in his boundless benevolence- reveal title and writer of the ONLY reliable and recently published academic study on Jewish, Zionist and Israeli history.

That's exactly the point.

Instead of reading academic reports striving to be impartial, you are reading books which are published to advance an already known goal . When you pick up "the rape of palestine" you know that the author has already decided what he wants to tell you.

Who has written the 'Rape of Palestine'?
Have you read the book?
What makes you think the author is anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic?

It doesn't mean it's not a reliable source. You just need to learn to address the inherent bias in its analysis of events.

It is either a reliable source and worth reading- or it is NOT a reliable source and NOT worth reading.

Doubtless you will not believe me, but nevertheless I try -using my rather limited intellectual powers- to search for and read books that are reliable.
That is why I started searching for literature in the Encyclopaedia Britannica.
In the Western world -and I live in the Western world- this is considered the most reliable and impartial encyclopaedia produced. In my view there are many other good encyclopaedias though.

When you, the infallible Sirotnikov, the ONLY reliable expert on the subject of Jewish, Zionist and Israeli history, are willing -in your boundless benevolence- to reveal title of a better, more reliable encyclopaedia, Please do!
I still do not speak, read or write the Language of the Supreme Divine Being, so please recommend something written in English, French, German or Spanish.

I sincerely hope there has been produced an encyclopaedia better than the Britannica since it is obvious it has not found favour with you.
I understand my inadequate command of languages is a problem, but please do not reject this simple historian!

After the Britannice I consulted:
J.M.Romein, J.Haak, Apparaat voor de studie der geschiedenis,1979
this book is in accordance with custom consulted by ALL Dutch historians when searching for literature in a formerly unknown field.
It seems to me you are rather suspicious of Dutch historical studies and universities.

Doubtless you will have excellent reasons for your distrust, but could you please give your reasons?

And -far more important- could you, the infallible Sirotnikov, the ONLY reliable expert on the subject of Jewish, Zionist and Israeli and WORLD history, -in your boundless benevolence- please reveal title and author of a better, more reliable bibliography, Please do!
I still do not speak, read or write the Language of the Supreme Divine Being, so please recommend something written in English, French, German or Spanish.

I sincerely hope there has been produced a bibliography better than the Apparaat voor de studie der geschiedenis since it is obvious it has not found favour with you.
I understand my inadequate command of languages is a problem, but please do not reject this simple historian!

I consulted several other bibliographies -doubtless ALL of dubious quality, as we live in a Dark Age- but I will not bother you with trivialities.

Next I consulted
The Middle East Journal, Washington,
as you doubtless will know, by far the most respected and prestigious scientific journal, searching for reviews of recently published scholarly publications and articles in other journals.
When you have reasons to distrust The Middle East Journal, Washington, please say so, giving your reasons.

And -far more important- could you, the infallible Sirotnikov, the ONLY reliable expert on the subject of Jewish, Zionist and Israeli history, -in your boundless benevolence- please reveal the title of a better, more reliable scholarly journal, Please do!
I still do not speak, read or write the Language of the Supreme Divine Being, so please recommend something written in English, French, German or Spanish.

I understand my inadequate command of languages is a problem, but please do not reject this simple historian!

I also asked several times Sirotnikov, the ONLY reliable expert on the subject of Jewish, Zionist and Israeli history, to mention -in his boundless benevolence- titles and writers of some reliable and recently published academic study on Jewish, Zionist and Israeli history.

Unfortunately my pleas were not granted until now.....

Even most your book titles sound alike and present a consitent view:
"Zionism and Dictators"
"The siege and saga of Zionism"

it only misses "Zionism the false prophecy" (or something like that. it's a real book) to be complete.

Is my conclusion justified that ALL books are unreliable and that it is a waste of time to read any historical study at all?

Please, at least, try to balance your view by reading as much pro-Israeli books or books by zionist authors.

This is the reason -since I have apparently failed to secure any of these pro-Israeli books or books by zionist authors- I again implore Sirotnikov, the ONLY reliable expert on the subject of Jewish, Zionist and Israeli history, -in his boundless benevolence- to reveal at least some titles and writers of the ONLY reliable and recently published academic studies on Jewish, Zionist and Israeli history.

And as far as your view of my knowledge and sources - I studied judaism and bible from some among the best of Israeli teachers. I've read chapters from the talmud, and other sources.

Could you, Sirotnikov, the ONLY reliable expert on the subject of Jewish, Zionist and Israeli history, -in your boundless benevolence- please reveal the names of the best of your Israeli teachers; please also list the titles and authors of your other reliable sources on Jewish, Zionist and Israeli history.
I have obviously failed to find them.

I've also read dozens of books, heard several lectures, watched dozens of history shows.

So you even watched dozens of history shows and are allowed to believe the information presented?
You are so immensely favoured in Israel!

When a student of me would list a history show as a reliable source, I would immediately tear up his essay.

So excuse me if I can't always remember every resource by heart and that I do not intend to translate the entire Israeli law to english.

Of course I do not expect a Sirotnikov to remember every resource by heart, yet I would nevertheless be immensely pleased when this Sirotnikov would be able to mention a few of those dozens of books, containing the TRUE and ONLY reliable History of Jewish, Zionist and Israeli history.

At least I don't go around copying and pasting paragraphs from a "why is Israel inherently evil - including well researched quotes" internet site, which is what you seem to be doing, considering how easily you skipped from one source to another, following the same subjects and so on.

I am extremely sorry to disappoint you on this issue.
You will doubtless not believe me, but I sat -some fifteen years ago- for my B.A. examination. Afterwards I pursued another career, but at least I learned the basic techniques of an historian.
When you would ever start a study of History at a university, you would soon discover that ALL historians are basically 'copy and paste artists'.
They do not 'copy and paste' from the Internet, but instead 'copy and paste' primary and secondary sources. Yes, some times they will paraphrase their sources -I have done so too several times- but it is still the same technique.
I have already tried to explain to your 'friend' musex what line historians usually take: they read a lot and then decide what fragments to combine.

Historians do not repeat one another; on the contrary, they often disagree with one another.
They generally read thousands of pages, written by eyewitnesses, journalists etc. They read inscriptions, diaries, codes of law, minute books, government orders, letters, surveys, statistical material, bills, books/pamphlets written during the period they are studying etc; they spend thousands of hours searching archives; they visit locations where important events occurred, often they interview politicians, eyewitnesses, soldiers, public servants etc.; they study maps, land registers etc.

Often they will quote verbatim their sources; if not, they will provide a footnote with a source reference. This makes it possible for other historians/people to read/check these source with their own eyes.

Since you claim to have studied History from the best of Israeli teachers, I presume it will not be necessary to explain to you the difference between primary and secondary sources.
Since I do not live in Israel, New York or London, it is rather difficult for me to visit the archives where the most important sources are kept. Consequently I have hardly read any primary sources, though that would have been best.
Perhaps -I doubt it- you noticed that most studies frequently quote those primary sources.

But I am essentially curious, not really lazy -only a bit- and I do not have reading problems. And I truly like visiting a library and searching for books, articles and reviews. I am forced to visit the university library on a regular basis anyway.

I am still willing to read some books or articles you recommend; so far you have only given the title of a book on Israeli form of government, not my main interest, though useful.
(it seemed to be a book meant for secondary education; am I correct?)
When you keep refusing to recommend some reliable studies the inevitable conclusion will be that they do not exist.

As I have told previously, Late Antiquity and Early Byzantium is my field of knowledge, but that does not exclude some proficiency when studying another region or historical period.
I do not advise you to pursue historical studies; it seems to me you lack the essential qualities of an historian: curiosity, diligence, excellent reading skills and the joy to delve in libraries and archives -no offense meant.

Either that, or you have wrote a paper on it, basing it on several books, and keep it handy.

You're welcome!

S.Kroeze

[blackice]

the numbers are 3 TIMES that of Israelis.

Do those numbers include the bombers? the ones attacking? innocents? army? those killed by suicide bomers from their own side? Break it down show some thought....

Seems to me the attacks I posted were not millitary missions on the part of the Israelis. Those attacks are in markets and universities and pizza... well you get the idea. None of those attacks can be justified as millitary targets if people are going to simply post numbers They are meaningless as far as facts go.

From what I have read so far those numbers you posted include the suicide bomers, people attacking Israelis, victims of the suicide bombers, people killed by their own side as spies...

So maybe a break down of the numbers would provide a clearer picture? What do you think?

[S. Kroeze]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Just like the European world had a moral obligation after WW2 to give the Jewish survivors of the Holocaust the security they had been denied by 60 years of escalating European antisemitism. What's you're proposal for remedying that problem?

Yes, we always knew Europeans are the most generous of people.
They persecute the professors of some religion for 20 centuries, then 6 million are murdered through assembly lime production and then...

the few survivors are shipped -against their own wish- to die in the desert among 'Arab savages'!
This policy ensures that the Muslim world -till then most tolerant- will adopt Europe's anti-Semitism.
So we Europeans can be sure that the murderers of Christ will not escape into safety.
HURRAY!

One accidental advantage: not ONE acre of European or American territory is lost.
I think they should have given them the planet of Saturn for free too!

And -since it seems not to be your habit to read my posts- the thought has probably never occurred to you that the leadership of this colonial expedition had done nothing to limit the slaughter.
On the contrary: they had cut off escape routes!

My guess is, the Europeans knew what they were doing.

[CyberGnu]

Siro, as I just told musex, I've proven conclusively that jews have no, I repeat NO valid claim on palestine. If you wish to claim otherwise, please refute the arguments presented in pages 6-12.

[S. Kroeze]

Originally posted by blackice
Since September 2000, 593 people have been killed on the Israeli side.

Which shows Palestinians are completely inept terrorists!

Zionists terrorists killed about 250 Arabs in one day: 9 April 1948 in Deir Yassin.

[CyberGnu]

Blackice, I assume you have found a reliable study this time, instead of the propaganda crap you posted ten pages ago?

Although, maybe you didn't fully understand why it was a pile of fetid dingos kidneys? Do you want me to explain it in simpler words for you? From the word 'flakes' I assume you understand two-syllable words, I could try to limit myself to your vocubulary. Umm, I mean... To words you know. There we go.

[CyberGnu]

Kroeze:

I again implore Sirotnikov, the ONLY reliable expert on the subject of Jewish, Zionist and Israeli history, -in his boundless benevolence- to reveal at least some titles and writers of the ONLY reliable and recently published academic studies on Jewish, Zionist and Israeli history.

100:1 says it wont happen

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Dr Strangelove, they offered the zionist movement an inhabited part of Uganda in 1901, 40 years before the holocaust...

Furthermore, why is it that the palestinians (who historically have treated the jews a lot better than europeans) should be forced to give up land for a jewish state?

Morally, there is no answer to that question.

A moral solution to the issue of a jewish state would either have been to partition off a part of Europe (maybe old East Preussia), or a part of the US (say Arizona or New Mexico).

Uganda was never uninhabited.

From 1940 to 1950 the US accepted 500,000 jewish refugees. How many did Sweden take in?

Why give them US territory? The US didn't make them wear yellow stars. The US didn't put them in ovens. The US didn't collaborate with those who did those things as some Scandinavian nations which happened to make the kind of high grade steel needed to make high velocity anti-aircraft and anti-tank guns upon which the Wehrmacht relied did.
The US didn't refuse to take back its own citizens after they were released from concentration camps like certain European nations did. The US didn't chase off many of those who tried to return.
Talking about what should have been done doesn't help anyone beyond allowing the person making the suggestion to intellectualize and thereby insulate himself from his share of the collective guilt.
Come on and 'fess up to your share 'gnu. Your nation helped the Nazis build and maintain their war machine. You helped put these people in the situation they're in. It's up to you to make it up to them.

[CyberGnu]

inhabited part of Uganda


Sweden is the wrong country to attack... Look up Raol Wallenberg. Furthermore, it was either sell steel or be invaded. Oddly enough, I'd rather make money than get killed... I also would rather eat than see my children starve...

This is not a Siro'esqe refutation of a minor issue instead of the point of the post, however. You say that the US had no responsibility to help the jews. Granted, but the US choose to become involved by working aggressively for the establishment of a jewish state in palestine.

Either the US could have worked for a jewish state in Europe, in the US, or not at all. Working to steal land from an independent group is not morally defensible.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
inhabited part of Uganda


Sweden is the wrong country to attack... Look up Raol Wallenberg. Furthermore, it was either sell steel or be invaded. Oddly enough, I'd rather make money than get killed... I also would rather eat than see my children starve...

This is not a Siro'esqe refutation of a minor issue instead of the point of the post, however. You say that the US had no responsibility to help the jews. Granted, but the US choose to become involved by working aggressively for the establishment of a jewish state in palestine.

Either the US could have worked for a jewish state in Europe, in the US, or not at all. Working to steal land from an independent group is not morally defensible.

There were no uninhabited parts of Uganda, unless they were planning on moving them onto the lake!

Wallenberg was one man. What about the rest of you?

Sweden could have resisted. Hitler didn't want Sweden. The only reason he invaded Norway was to outflank the British Navy. He didn't bother with invading Sweden, because to do so offered no military advantage. Sweden could have built up its forces in 1939 to 1941 in order to make Sweden defensible, because Sweden could have defended itself. Sweden wouldn't have to allow itself to be taken by surprise like Norway was. By 1942 Hitler didn't have the forces to spare to invade Sweden. Then Sweden could have refused to continue to collaborate. Facing only the axis forces available in Norway Sweden could have successfully defended itself. The British and US navies would have worked with Sweden to keep German reinforcements from reaching Scandinavia. It was "do-able", if not in 1942, then in 1943, but Sweden never tried. Swedish ores stopped reaching Germany only when the Soviet Union was finally able to send sufficient quantities of submarines into the Baltic sea.

[CyberGnu]

IIRC, a large part of Uganda was uninhabitated because of a combination of famine and an epidemic. You will have to take this up with the people of the british parliament, who made the offer in 1901.

That Hitler didn't invade Sweden was not because he didn't bother, but because he needed the swedish steel.

Sweden told Hitler quite bluntly that if invaded, Sweden would blow the iron mines in Bergslagen. Hitler made it clear that if the iron stopped flowing, Sweden would be invaded. Both parties preferred to avoid bloodshed.

Your logic regarding 1943+ is on the surface sound, but fails on one premise: It assumes that Hitler was rational. As we all know, he was anything but in the later stages of the war... And if you were the ruler of a nation, would you have bet the lives of your citizens on Hitler being rational enough not to invade? Stalin did, and paid the price...

[CyberGnu]

BTW, why did this thread turn into swedens actions during the war? We weren't in it, we didn't prosecute jews during it, we had nothing to do with the creation of Israel. Sweden has as much to do with this issue as Surinam or Fiji.

I responded to your point, that the US had no moral obligation to give up their won land to a jewish state. This point would only be valid had the US not involved itself in the question at all (like Sweden). Would you care to comment this?

[Ned]

Siro, Eli, et al. Well it looks like the re-occupation is not totally effective. What next?

[CyberGnu]

What do you mean not totally effetive? The peace process is in shambles, which was the goal of the reoccupation...