8 Children Killed in Israeli Attack

[Shiber]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Shiber, I know of no other country that pretends to be an impartial democracy but still continues an aggressive ocupation... So you have to choose. Keep your text books, just don't pretend they are unbiased. Or even true.

I wasn't pretending they're unbiased. I wasn't quoting them or supporting any of my arguments with them either. It was you who first mentioned Israeli text books, not me.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
I was comparing the palestinians to the jews, and Israel to the romans.

I could have used the ww2 french vs the germans instead, doens't make a difference.

the point is a repressed people will fight for independence.

Yet the Palestinians are the only repressed nation that I know of that use suicide bombers as their main weapon.
Besides, you know perfectly well that it's not just Israeli occupation that they resist, it is the existence of Israel.

[S. Kroeze]

Originally posted by Ned
S. Kroeze, You make it sound so simple. But it is not.

"The only solution of tile problem put forward by the Arab Higher Committee was the immediate establishment of all independent Arab Government, which would deal with the 400,000 Jews now in Palestine as it thought fit."

This is a quote from the Peel Commisssion report.

The end to the Jewish presence in Palestine was and to, some extent, is still the ultimate Arab goal. A second, Final Solution.

You are so immensely prejudiced against Arabs/Muslims...
This not funny anymore!
When you would possess some intellectual integrity you would at least try to substantiate your mantra:
'the Jews were constantly attacked'

You do not even try because you know you couldn't do it.
Compared with some twenty centuries of perpetual persecution of Jews by Christians, the Muslims have acted like 'true Saints'.
When you would read some of the writings of Luther and Augustine -to mention only some rabid Anti-Semites- (when I wished I could mention hundreds of Anti-Semitic Christian thinkers) you would acknowledge that genocide is peculiar to Western civilisation.

You are just projecting the guilty conscience of the Western world on Muslims/Arabs.
In 1948 the Zionists effectively drove out most Arabs. The decision not to allow the refugees to return was taken in June 1948(!). The majority of Arab refugees had fled before the Arab neighbours attacked.
I can show this quoting primary sources (Benny Morris,'The birth of the Palestinian refugee problem',1987). For your information Morris is a (pro-)Israeli historian.
Normally I would have done so now, but I should go sleeping soon. I also doubt whether you have ever read my various quotes carefully.

The policy of the Zionist resulted in 700,000 -possibly more- Arab refugees. In the worst case -there is no reason to believe this, especially since in 1937 the British were still present- some 400,000 Jews would have been expelled.
Whose fault was it that so many settlers had migrated to Palestine in so short a period of time? Definitely not the Arabs!
(Or do you hold the Arabs in Palestine responsible for 2,000 years of Christian anti-Semitism, the pogroms in Eastern Europe and the rise of Nazism? It wouldn't surprise me anymore...)

Your mantra is just a lie! There were no large-scale progroms in the Muslim world.
Without further evidence -I have done my best quoting about a dozen different studies- you should play some other music.

You suggest that we Americans could round up all illegal Mexicans and simply return them to Mexico. But, there are tens of millions of them! There may be some lunatics who could advocate this, but can you imagine the human suffering this would cause if it were actuallly attempted? The mere advocacy of such a position is astoundingly racist.

First I didn't advocate such policy. I only pointed out that a sovereign democracy can and should make decisions about migration. The U.S. government should either authenticate those illegal immigrants or expel them. Doing nothing but watch will only exacerbate problems.
By the way, during and before World War II, Zionists and Americans had hardly ever moral objections to refuse European refugees. When you would have read my citation of Ben-Gurion you would know that for him the conquest of Palestine was far more important than saving Jewish life. On various occasions he tried to prevent migration of Jewish refugees to other countries.
When you can show me evidence of Zionist leaders actively helping/saving/rescuing Jewish refugees during World War II, please do! I have not found it.

Of course it is 'nice' to start name-calling. I would like to point out that it is typically 'racist' to make a selection based on race. Muslims select mainly on religion.

But this is exactly what you and your Arab brethern were and still are advocating. The fate of the Jews in Palestine, if you had your way, would be the same fate they suffered at the hands of the Nazi's.

Your overexaggerated fear for the safety of Jewish immigrants seems to me mainly the responsibility of those who brought them in this mousetrap.

IF Palestine was the most unsafe place on earth to live for a Jew, which morbid, sadistic crooks had invented the very idea to migrate to this region?
I have often pointed out that this ountry is mostly desert, rather rocky and lacks valuable raw materials. Only a lunatic would promote mass migration to such a dreary place.

I am willing to admit that Muslim tolerance has not improved since the Muslim world was colonised and in part ethnically cleansed.
But without some evidence -something like Mein Kampf- this is just hollow rhetoric. You should give evidence that the Arabs before 1948 were more bloodthirsty than the Zionists and other Europeans.

Perhaps I have to disappoint you: I do not believe I have ever received a Muslim in my house. Doubtless there are millions of very sympathetic Muslims on this planet, but I am not closely acquainted with them.
I am truly sorry.

I am also disappointed that you decided to disregard ALL my questions. I do not expect you to answer them all, but it would be nice when you would answer some.

Especially this part was important:
First I would like to point out that the main target of the revolt were not Jews, but the British coloniser. It seems to me, you deny non-Europeans ALL fundamental human rights, but there are many people -and I am one of them- who think that revolt to colonial rule is legitimate, though violence is regrettable.
Apart from this 'Great Revolt' there were some violent attacks on Jews and Jewish property between 1917 and 1947, but nothing comparable to the Reichskristallnacht, the countless pogroms in Russia and Poland, or the Holocaust. In the years after the 'Great Revolt' it was mainly Zionist terrorism that destabilised Palestine.

When I read your mantra 'the Jews were constantly attacked', I always wonder which history books you read on this issue. Please list them, and please also list at least some of these 'constant attacks'!
You have probably never considered the possibility that some violent outbursts were provoked by Jabotinsky and his Revisionist followers?

Now returning to the comparison with Mexicans in the U.S./Zionists in Palestine:
How did the Zionists behave in Palestine?
Did the Arab -Muslim, Christian AND Jewish- population have any influence on Zionist immigration and acquisition of land?

There was no democratically elected government in Palestine, nor where the British eager to promote it. In the '30s the British considered to experiment with democratic self-government, but because the Zionists opposed it, nothing was accomplished.
Do Mexican immigrants in the U.S. also oppose democracy and self-government?

[muxec]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
musec, what on earth are you talking about?

First: My nickname is muXec, not muSec.

Second: The meaning of the saying "Historicans repeat each other" is that each country teach its people history in the one way. In all history books released in Russia written, that the main part of WW2 victory performed by Russia. Americans write about themselves, French refer to themself, and my country isnt exception. In socialistic russia all in school books were written "Socialism the best" and a lot of samples from history. In Jews schools books written thet jews always right, and it isnt truth. We see that historicans repeat each other to survive and kiss goverment's ass.

Third: If i were moderator i would close the topic.

[muxec]

S. Kroeze: why does palestinians think that Jadaca (Jhudea) is their terrain???? The geographic name and history prove us that it s jews land.

[CyberGnu]

I know. My point was that Israel was under attack in 1991. The Oslo agreement was signed in 1994. Do you think that in 3 yrs. time Arafat has changed from a hater of Israel who supports acts of using ballistic missiles against population centers in Israel to a peace-loving person who is willing to compromise with Israel? You must be awfully gullible.

Nope. just a firm believer in the pragmatism of Arafat. As I said, he staked his political future on the promise that peace with Israel would lead to a palestinian state.

If you think Arafat would do anything against his own best interest you must be awfully gullible....

Maybe he, I dunno... lied? Duh?
May I also remind you that he was under heavy pressure by the US government which was sustained for months before he agreed to release such a statement?

Well, then he could have lied when he condoned terrorism as well, couldn't he? Assuming that he lied this time because it fits with how you want him to be is disingenious.

I wasn't pretending they're unbiased. I wasn't quoting them or supporting any of my arguments with them either. It was you who first mentioned Israeli text books, not me.

You are right. I confused you with Siro... My apologies

Yet the Palestinians are the only repressed nation that I know of that use suicide bombers as their main weapon.

So? Soldiers have sacrificed their lives for the common good for thousands of years.

Besides, you know perfectly well that it's not just Israeli occupation that they resist, it is the existence of Israel.

How would I know that? They never had the chance to prove otherwise, did they?

[CyberGnu]

Shiber, before you reply to my most recent posts however, I would like you to respond to the two most important issues here: the veracity of the statements 'there was plenty of avialable land' and 'the jewish people has a valid claim on palestine'.

[cia]

CyberGnu,
Insofar as I am NOT about to read all of the above, if we are speaking of the Middle East: a) Israel DID exist at some point in history before present times, and b) there is enough land under 'Muslim' control to provide the Paelstinians with a country of sustainable size.

[CyberGnu]

Muxec, well, you are a newbie... I'll try to remember your name.

Flawed textbooks has nothing to do with historians. That creationists have managed to ruin biology textbooks does not mean that biologists lie... Quite the contrary. They fight for objectivity in text books, not the othe way around. I would guess that historians do likewise.

Why should the moderators close the thread? This thread actually has suprisingly high intellectual level for a ME thread, only one accusation of antisemitism and two 'you don;t understand because you don't live here/born jewish/kill innocent people personally'.

Finally, in repsonse to your question to Kroeze: Because they live there.

What on earth makes you think the jewish people have a claim on land owned by the palestinians?

[cia]

CyberGnu,
History is exemplary at teaching us there is one true continuum, and that is that might DOES make right. So as soon as the Palestinians knock the jews into the sea they can say they don't belong there. Review my sig if necessary.

[CyberGnu]

cia, that the jews did own land at some point in history does not give them the right to displace the people who live there now (or rather lived there before the jews shoved them out).

That there is ample land elsewhere is not a defense.

Finally, the only thing wolrd war two taught us was the danger of letting might give right. Since then, we have tried to let civilization be our goal... and might gives right is not compatible with a civilized society.

Sadly, the continued US support of Israel thoroughly evaporates all moral high ground when it comes to dending civilization, freedom or justice.

[cia]

But one could argue that the jews were 'regaining' their stolen land from a previous aggressor and therefore were entitled to the land due the fact they were a displaced people?

[muxec]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Finally, in repsonse to your question to Kroeze: Because they live there.

So it means that they are agressors, and they captured our land.

[muxec]

Do you know that these lands were bought back in 20th century?

[CyberGnu]

cia and muxec. Please read the previous posts in this thread. I really don't fel like repeating the exact same argument I just had with shiber.

The jewish people had a claim on Israel land 1400 years ago, but decided not to pursue it. they instead opted to live in Europe and the the more civilized areas of the muslim empires. Ergo, the historical claim they one had was invalidated in favor of the people who actually DID decide to live there.

It appears that Shiber eventually ran out of stalling arguments, and has since disappeared. If either of you have anything to add that would validate this claim despite the 1400 year long period where jews decided not to return to palestine, I would be most interested to hear it.

muxec:

Do you know that these lands were bought back in 20th century?

A) Only 4%, the rest was (in the eyes of the law) owned by arabs or the british mandate.

B) Wouldn't matter if it was 100%. A people does not have the right to declare their own nation on a piece of land, even if they have bought it legally. I can't buy a few square miles of land in the U.S. and declare it Gnutopia.