Israel is a rascist state

[Saint Marcus]

Ok Webster, you win. Now explain the difference between policies in:

modern day Israel
modern day Zimbabwe
apartheid-day South Africa

Every defender of Israel has carefully avoided touching this subject. I wonder why.

I'm all ears Winston & Oerdin.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
Funny. It's the same arugment the whites used in South Africa under Apartheid. You can't tell the good black from the bad black, so all blacks were kept out of certain cities or neighbourhoods.

They used the same arguments as you. Are you saying they were right to impose Apartheid? Seems like you are.

If you recall I spoke about WW1 & WW2 and how enemy noncombats were treated by both sides. In war time the Geneva & Hague conventions allow for the internment of enemy nationals for the duration of the war. This is what both sides did in WW1 & WW2.

Isreal has decided to do something better. They have communities were they intern themselves and not "enemy nationals". They do this for there own safety and unlike South Africa people really are dieing. Suicide bombers are almost an every day event. So yes it is safe to say that a war exists and, prosuent to international law, allowing people to seporate themselves from potential combatants is both justified and legal.

I disagree with several things the Isreali government has done but this issue is not one of them.

[Winston]

If you need that explained to you MarkL, then I don't think it's worth the effort.

Get your historical background knowledge and definitions straight before you start arguments about racism. Or the US. Or just about anything.

The OT will be a much happier place for all. And you'll stand a chance of making some sense once in a while.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara Before you go off strutting around, you might want to study Middle Eastern history in depth. Me, I'm fascinated by the stuff. I read about it all the time.

I have studied history endepth I dual majored in History and Geology at the University of California at Santa Barbara. Although my specialty was the classical world, because that is what interested me the most, I never the less took several classes dealing with both the ancient and modern middle east. Now if you are satified with my credentials...

Palistines' certainly have a right to some of the land and a state of their own. I would suggest the pre-1967 borders, with a few exceptions to keep ethnic communities mostly within their respective states, as a starting point.

Chegitz: My main contention with you was that you stated Palistines were peaceful natives and Jews were the aggressors. That is a complete mischaracterization of the historical record. What we have are to competing claims for the same land; to say one is native and the other is foreign is to imply that one has a stronger claim.

The real choice is between one side that has current and, distant, historical past possesion while the other side has more recent past possesion (even if gained through conquest). Both sides are partially right and partially wrong. A lasting peace will have to take this into account.

What really needs to happan is a Kosovo or Bosnia style U.N. redrawing of the lines. When I was stationed in Kosovo with the U.S. Army the Albanians administered the lands where albanians lived and Serbs administered lands where Serbs lived. They did this while the U.N. watched over them to keep both sides honest. The same needs to be done with the west bank. Jewish settlements that are contigious with Isreal should be run by Isreal and the rest abandoned.

[chequita guevara]

Oerdin, saying the Palestinians aren't the aggressors is not the same as saying they are peaceful. However, it cannot be denied that the Palestinians are the natives of the land of Palestine, and that the Jews are outsiders.

Regardless of whether you think the Israelis or the Arabs started the various wars, the fact remains that the Palestinians are occupied, and hence the defenders. Israel is the occupier, hence the aggressor.


And Kosovo is not what I'd call a success story, seeing as the Albanian mafia, aka, the KLA has ethnicly cleansed the province.

[Winston]

Arabs in general are the aggressors towards Israel. That includes the Palestinians.

[chequita guevara]

Only if you ignore history and reality, Winston, only if you ignore history and reality.

[Winston]

My perception is well founded both historically and in the reality as it unfolds for Israeli civilians on a daily basis.

Israel never initiated a war. Against the Palestinians or any other people.

The Arabs/Palestinians on the other hand...

[chequita guevara]

Isarael initiated four of the five Arab-Israeli Wars.

[Winston]

That's a lie and you know it.

Sorry that I can't attach a smiley when being so mean this time.

[chequita guevara]

It's not a lie.

Israel started the following wars:
1948
1956
1967
and
1982

If the war hadn't ended so abruptly, I'd include the aborted invasion of Lebanon in 1977. But the US yanked Israel's chain that time.

Israel was not alone in starting the 1948 war, and you can argue that they were justified in starting the 1967 war (though they weren't). That doesn't change the fact that they started all those wars.

[Winston]

It is a lie. Or you have a very alternative understanding of what constitutes an initiation of war.

The Arabs are the aggressor in the ongoing conflict as they have been continuously in the past.

[DerSchwarzfalke]

The War of Independence was initiated by the Arab nations who refused to recognize Israel's existence. So, that's one not launched by Israel.

The 1956 Sinai Campaign was a little more blatant, but that was done with British and French cooperation and acquiesance against Nasser. Too bad the Europeans didn't do the job right. I'll give you that one.

The Six Days War of 1967 was a little more iffy; it is pretty much agreed among all circles that the Arab states were going to attack Israel within days, so Israel attacked first to gain the advantage -- a 'proactive defense' if you will Either way, this was not Israel going out and looking to pick a fight; the PM at the time was doing quite a bit to avert the war, but it was obvious Cairo, Damascus, and Amman were looking for war. I think the blame for that war rests more with the Arab states.

The Yom Kippur War of 1973 caught Israel off guard with the initial invasion, so I don't see how they possibly could have started that one.

And then there's the Lebanese Invasion, if you want to consider that part of the Israeli-Arab wars, in which Israel invaded Lebanon after guerrillas based in Southern Lebanon attacked Israel repeatedly. Again, it wasn't blind aggression or a land grab; it was a military operation to secure Israel's borders.

So, that's maybe one of the Arab-Israeli Wars actually started by Israel. In all other cases it was either outright Arab aggression or the almost guaranteed possibility of Arab aggression.

As for rights to the land, the argument over Israel proper is now mute. The Israelis have facts on the ground there, and it is theirs so far as I and the international community am concerned. As for the settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, which take up no more than 2% according to one estimate -- 5% is the largest figure I've ever heard -- they displaced absolutely no Arab Palestinians in their construction. The land that was purchased or utilized for their construction was empty and unused, anyway, and I sincerely doubt you'll find many legitimate claims of whole villages being bulldozed to make way for Israelis looking for a tax break.

[Winston]

Nice initiation of posting at Apolyton there, DerSchwarzfalke!

Welcome aboard.

[CyberGnu]

Oerdin, 'competing claims' does not mean both of them have merit. I can claim that I own your house. You can claim the same. That would make our position 'competing claims'. Mine would be unfounded, of course.

So it is basically rhetoric to call them competing claims.

Israel displaced hundreds of thousands of arabs when they forcibly created their country. After that, they still didn;t have enough, so they occupied some more. Now their greed wont let them leave even a measly 22% of palestine to the people who own it...

As usual, leaves me with a sense of disgust...