Israel is a rascist state

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
You are "forcibly creating a country" when five armies invade land that is, internationally recognized, as yours?

Israel was not internationally recognized until late 1948-49, when it was admitted to the UN. The Partition Plan the UN came up with was not legal and was only a suggestion for the two sides.

Isreal said the Arab refugees would only be allowed to return if the Arab states signed a Peace agreement.

Actually, part of Israel's agreement to be allowed into the UN was that they allow the refugees to return. Israel agreed to this but has never implimented it.

The Arab states refused saying they would "drive the Jews into the sea" so the refugees stayed in the camps.

The Arabs states never said this. The leader of one insignificant Arab militia did, and despite that leader's lack of influence, this statement has been blown far out of proportion. It's as if some captain in Iraq's army made a statement about getting revenge against the US and that was then conflated with Iraq's official policy. It's ludicrous.

If you want, I'll even look up the leader and his unit.

[Sirotnikov]

If we hadn't given them civil rights, maybe we would have had some. We did the right thing and gave in while it was still relatively non-violent. Israel waited a bit too long.

I thought they were impaired of civil rights until the 60s.
Considering USA was founded in the 18th century, that's a long time of being opressed.

I'm more inclined to say that the reason that african americans didn't use violence and arabs did, was the difference in culuture and the amount of religious fanaticism.

Most terrorists are religious fanatics and are muslim arabs. Islam has a long history of fanaticism and agression.

True, it also has many great achievements. I don't deny it. But it's almost the only actively agressive religion now. Sure you have several christian terror groups. But it's nothing compared to the fact that every state bordering Islam has a war between muslims and non muslims.

[chequita guevara]

you know what, Siro, I am sick of this argument. You win. I don't feel like continuing it. It takes up too much time.

[Sirotnikov]

Israel was not internationally recognized until late 1948-49, when it was admitted to the UN. The Partition Plan the UN came up with was not legal and was only a suggestion for the two sides.

The right for Israel to exist was recognized before.
Just because it wasn't a UN member doesn't mean anything.

Actually, part of Israel's agreement to be allowed into the UN was that they allow the refugees to return. Israel agreed to this but has never implimented it.

Some refugees to return. Those who it is possible to accept back and who intend to live in peace. I read that too.

Considering that a great deal of those either ran away on their own, or participated in the fighting, along with foreign arab commando groups, I doubt they were ready to come live in Israel.

[Sirotnikov]

Since the PLO didn't exist until 1965 and didn't become active until after 1967, that's impossible.

Perhaps I should remind you that "peace of the galillee" is the name of the 1982 invasion, by the time of which PLO was existant for - let's count 82 - 65 = 17 years

Since the Straits are entirely within Egptian territory, it was within their legal right to close them to 3rd parties. Just as Canada could close the St. Lawrence seaway to the US if it had a mind to do so.

Actually I'm not sure of that.

I'll check.

I can deny it, because that is what happened. May 15, 1948 found Israel with its troops outside the Jewish designated portion of Palestine

What were the Arab armies doing at the time?

I was pretty sure Israel was reacting to arab armies, but hey, you're the historian

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

If we hadn't given them civil rights, maybe we would have had some. We did the right thing and gave in while it was still relatively non-violent. Israel waited a bit too long.

I thought they were impaired of civil rights until the 60s.
Considering USA was founded in the 18th century, that's a long time of being opressed.

Oh, well, I guess you hadn't heard of the slave revolts. They tended to kill every white person they came across. After slavery ended, there was massive terrorism in the US, but it was directed against Black people. Even the meagerest Black resistence was crushed. Several Black towns were erased from the map. The Black part of Oklahoma City was destroyed, burned, and pushed into the river. It was even bombed from the air.

There were some attmpts at Black terrorism in the 70s, but they weren't very good at it, and they are all dead, in prison, or in exile.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

Since the PLO didn't exist until 1965 and didn't become active until after 1967, that's impossible.

Perhaps I should remind you that "peace of the galillee" is the name of the 1982 invasion, by the time of which PLO was existant for - let's count 82 - 65 = 17 years

Oh.

I can deny it, because that is what happened. May 15, 1948 found Israel with its troops outside the Jewish designated portion of Palestine

What were the Arab armies doing at the time?

Running their engines at the border. I'm sure they would have attacked you if they could. That's not the point. The point is that both sides were the aggressors in 1948. Had the Arabs not attacked, all of Palestine would have wound up as Israel.

[Sirotnikov]

you know what, Siro, I am sick of this argument. You win. I don't feel like continuing it. It takes up too much time.

Woohooo


(j/k)




On Topic:
Basically, you just have some very wierd soviet-manufactured facts.

Every possible western account of 1967 war mentioned that USSR fabricated intelligence over Israeli intentions to attack, which caused Egypt and Syria to arm, which caused in turn Israel to arm.

So basically that USSR tip and the following arms race, and the Arab terror originating in Syria Egypt and Jordan, including using Golan hieghts to shell Israel, is what caused Israel to attack.

Off Topic again:

Wooohoo - I won

[chequita guevara]

You make it sound so one-sided when you know damn well both of you have been willing tango partners in this dance of death for the past 54 years.

[Sirotnikov]

Had the Arabs not attacked, all of Palestine would have wound up as Israel

It's a question of a point of view.


And my previous image attachment was something I made for the Apolyton celebrates 3 years thread. And YES I was waiting for an opportunity to use it again

[Dinner]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Given that just about everyone except the US and Israel recongize that the PLO had followed the 1981 Cease-fire agreement with Israel, your comment about guerillas attacking Israel repeated does not hold water. This was a blatent attack by Israel to destroy the PLO, which was gaining legitimacy by adhering to the cease-fire.

It's a good thing you aren't a historian my friend because you would be kicked out of the proffession for being so deciptive. Isreal sorounded Beirut and out numbered all the Lebanese malitias by 9 to 1 (and that figure includes the Christian malitia who allied with Isreal since the Sunnis & Shiites had both allied against the Christians). They had a list of all the PLOs leadership and the locations of all of the PLO's bases of opporations but they didn't take Beirut because the Isreali government was worried what the International response would be if it took over an Arab capital city.

Instead they informed the PLO leadership that they had one week to leave Lebanon or the city would be invaded and all of them would be executed. With in three days the PLO was packed up and on ships bound for Tunisia.

If you question this account watch the Show "A History of the PLO" put out by CNN and you will see Yasser Airafat recount events in his own words; you will also listen to him admite that the PLO was behind the cross border attacks and you'll hear him talk about how he felt terrorist attacks on Isreal's borders was the only way Palistinians could stand up to Isreal. Wither you agree or disagree with the PLOs tactics you will see how outlandishly stupid chegitz guevara's claims that the PLO didn't launch any attacks against Isreal is. Especially when the PLO leadship freely admites they did it.

[chequita guevara]

Even Siro, an Israeli, claimed that the pretext for the invasion was not PLO terror attacks, but the assassintation of th Israeli ambassador in London. Of course, the fact tht he was killed by Abu-Nidal, which was not part of the PLO didn't deter the invasion.

Stop relying on US sources alone. They kiss the Israeli's ass.

But, since you claim to be an historian of sorts, who don't you do an NYTimes for the period of 1981-82 for Palestinian terrorism. You'll likely have to go to an actual libary to do it however. You won't find any attacks because they didn't exist.

Also, Israel had its chain yanked from invading Beruit. It wanted to. But after killing 20,000 people in Sidon and Tyre alone, even Reagan wasn't ready to see what would happen in Beruit.

[Sirotnikov]

I agree that we were both tango partners.

I agree that Israel found the expansion of terrain... enjoyable.

But we really weren't the evil expansionists you think. We were terrorized. So we thought, ok let's deal with that and get some land too.

[Sirotnikov]

I don't have an immediate source, but I'm pretty sure that Abu-Nidal was well connected with PLO.

As far as the ambassador goes - that is the thing that sprung into my mind. That doesn't mean it was the only thing. Even I can't remember every terract that ever occured.

[chequita guevara]

[Al Pacino mode]
I try to get out, but they just keep pulling me back in.
[/Al Pacino mode]