Good atheists go to heaven. Bad Christians do not.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Originally posted by Apocalypse
. . .someone that I really care what happens to.

If that's a fact, then you must love her.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
I want to talk more with you all

come on again tomorrow

Jon Miller

Ah, same here. Goodnight everyone.

[Apocalypse]

Cornelius Tacitus was born circa A.D. 52-54 and was a Roman historian. He alluded to the death of Jesus and to Christians in Rome when he wrote:

"Hence to suppress the rumor, he (Nero) falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius; but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also" (Annals, XV.44).

I would find a Roman record closer to 30 AD, but this thread is moving fast so I found the first one I came upon.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Cloud9


Eh, um!

What flaws?

The chances of you being born (even given that your parents were planning to have a child together) is probably ~10^-15 or so. Think about how many billions of sperm cells there are...

If we were to use your logic, your birth is a proof for the existence of God. Another example: what are the chances that the number drawn in Wednesday's 6/49 lotto would be 2, 10, 20, 25, 44, 48?

Prior to Wednesday, they were ~13.9 million to one. Right now, they're hovering at around 1-1.

[Boris Godunov]

Apocalypse:

That's not a contemporary account of Jesus's existence. He is simply regurgitating the stories put forward by Christians at the time of the crucifixion. His saying this isn't based on Roman records, but on Christian ideology.

[Apocalypse]

About my caring for her...I just feel responsible for what happens to her. I indirectly and unintentially caused her great pain. This makes me feel bad. If she was happy, I would not have to feel that way. Thus I can still care about her but not love her.

And I'm ready to die for many people. They have a much better chance of being happy than I do.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Apocalypse:

That's not a contemporary account of Jesus's existence. He is simply regurgitating the stories put forward by Christians at the time of the crucifixion. His saying this isn't based on Roman records, but on Christian ideology.

It is in Annals. Wouldn't you think he'd correct this misinformation if Jesus didn't even exist?

[Boris Godunov]

Apoc: he didn't know any better.

Tacitus's histories are full of many inaccuracies and flat-out falsehoods, because he didn't base his history solely on verifiable record, but also on legend and popular accounts. He had no way of knowing if Jesus did or did not exist, because it was 20 years after the fact, and there were no records of it. But all the Christians of the time believed he existed and could recite the crucifixion stories. Given the Roman use of crucifixion, and his own willingness to rely on hearsay in his writings, he had no reason to not say what he did.

It isn't even close to documentary evidence of Jesus's existence. It's simply his reporting of popular Christian myth of the time.

[Apocalypse]

One would have to expect there to be a popular Jesus Never Existed movement at the time too though. Just because Tacitus is frequently wrong, doesn't mean he always is.

[KrazyHorse]

One would have to expect there to be a popular Jesus Never Existed

Is this a joke?

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse

But a lot of scientists are religious (about as many as are nonreligious). And a scientists job is not one condusive to having a lot of faith

Scientists (as a whole) are much less religious than the population that surrounds them. The least religious scientists are...physicists and mathematicians.

I am a scientist (physicist) and I believe in God. In fact, most of my friends are also physicists and a good proportion of them believe in God. At least as high a proportion as in non-science circles. I believe Jon Miller is just starting a PhD in Maths/Physics too.

In fact, I think that the deeper you look into how the universe works the more it looks like it was all 'designed' by someone. It doesn't matter how far we go in our studies we will never be able to answer the question 'why?'. Even if we have some final beautiful theory based on E8xE8' or whatever we will still not know why the universe is this way. This cannot be answered in principle.

There is always room for God.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse

One would have to expect there to be a popular Jesus Never Existed

Is this a joke?

No. I'm just saying that the idea that Jesus never existed formed fairly recently. Until then it was accepted he did exist, there was just debate over what he was and what he did.

[Arrian]

'round and 'round we go. Weeeeeeee!



-Arrian
(an agnostic who highly doubts the existence of God)

[Lincoln]

And to think this whole discussion started because of a cartoon. But actually I tend to agree with Paitkis here although I think we need to understand what the word "good" means in the Bible.

Hypocrisy is not good. In fact that seems to be the chief sin in God's eyes. Jesus condemned religious hypocrites to hell and held out hope for the common man who "received his words gladly". He also turned the world upside down when he appeared on the scene. He rejected those who thought they had some type of favor with God and he accepted the prostitutes, common sinners, tax collectors and other despised people.

There is no reason to think that he is not doing the same thing now. An atheist who is not a hypocrite may very well enter into the kingdom of God while a so called Christian may find himself without. On the other hand people need to stop mocking God because they do not understand him. He is the only hope and it seems rather foolish to assume that we have more wisdom and knowledge than him. He will mock those who mock him. So if an atheist is not sure I think it is best to refrain from ridicule until you do know for sure.

An atheist who claims that he does know for sure that there is no God is likewise a fool. I respect agnostics more than I do a lot of Christians. The point is that God sees the heart of man and he is not fooled by hypocrites or do-gooders whos motives are not pure. Doing good is not always good in God's eyes and openly sinning is sometimes just a cry for help that God will hear before he hears the prayer of a hypocrite.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Apocalypse
One would have to expect there to be a popular Jesus Never Existed movement at the time too though.

Why? Remember that there wasn't the standard of scholarship then there is today.

Just because Tacitus is frequently wrong, doesn't mean he always is.

The times when Tacitus is right is when his writing is supported by other historical accounts and documentary evidence. The times when he is wrong are when he relies on rumor, hearsay and popular legend. His recounting of Christ is the latter.

I'm not personally saying Jesus didn't exist. I'm only pointing out that there is no documentary evidence he did. So basing Faith on some sort of supposed factual reasoning is, in fact, not reasoned. Faith, in and of itself, is irrational. That doesn't make it wrong, it's just something that is beyond the scope of reason.

Keep your Faith, by all means. But we should also keep historical fact separate from religious legends.