Good atheists go to heaven. Bad Christians do not.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Why? Remember that there wasn't the standard of scholarship then there is today.

The times when Tacitus is right is when his writing is supported by other historical accounts and documentary evidence. The times when he is wrong are when he relies on rumor, hearsay and popular legend. His recounting of Christ is the latter.

I'm not personally saying Jesus didn't exist. I'm only pointing out that there is no documentary evidence he did. So basing Faith on some sort of supposed factual reasoning is, in fact, not reasoned. Faith, in and of itself, is irrational. That doesn't make it wrong, it's just something that is beyond the scope of reason.

Keep your Faith, by all means. But we should also keep historical fact separate from religious legends.

There wasn't a high standard, but people still called bs on other people.

And once again, I have no Christian faith. I just believe the there was some guy named Jesus.

[monkspider]

Well put Lincoln, I tend to agree with Paik too. I believe that those who have not been ministered to (like those in North America during the middle ages for example) , or those who have been ministered to, but do not find sufficient reason to believe, can still be saved by God's general revelation to that person.
On the question of whether a Christian is saved by faith or deeds. There is no reason to think that one can be saved by one and not by the other. They are not mutually exclusive as some seem to believe, on the contrary, they go hand in hand. If you possess a strong level of faith, and believe that God exists with all of your heart, it is inevitable that you will generally committ good deeds. People who like to think of themselves as christian and do nothing but break the lord's commandments and generally make the world a bad place to live in can't possibly possess a very high level of faith, if any at all. If they believed strongly in God why would they continue to commit grievous sins and fail to repent? Christians can't have faith without good deeds, or vice versa.

[Thucydides]

hmm, I think what the the original debate boils down to(not the later one involving a Christian God or Jesus' existence), is having two systems of classification of Good vs. Evil. On one hand you have the secular humanist version which is usually on the lines of the golden rule, which not so surprisingly is also in the Bible (not so surprising since almost every system of morality tends to start along these lines).

So at some point both systems of morality have something in common. Both ideas share the idea of do until others as you would like have done to you. But from there they deverge.

On one hand you have a system of morality remaining relatively static over it's history (changes have occured, but much slower then they have for they're conterpart, and not all for the better). The other system of morality is based a system of facts and the categorization of these facts into scientific theories as it's cornerstone. As our knowledge of the world and who we are changes, so do this system of morality which is now detached almost completely from religious doctrine.

So the question really boils down to what morality is. Has Good vs. Evil remained unchanged over the past milennium and actually written down in a book 2000 years ago, or is it something rather to be discovered and improved upon, so that as time goes on we can find even more effective ways to living in harmony together.

After all, I think that is the ultimate goal of the golden rule and morality in general. Morality is really about changing an individual actions in a way so that not only can he be happy and live a full life as he sees fit, but also that his actions maximize the ability of all sentient beings to do likewise.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Lincoln
The point is that God sees the heart of man and he is not fooled by hypocrites or do-gooders whos motives are not pure.

That's exactly why I don't understand Pascal's Wager. If somebody claims to believe in God just to get in God's good book, one would suppose that God wouldn't be fooled by such cheap tricks, and would also be pissed off at folks like Pascal for underestimating him and, in essence, lying to him.

[monkspider]

I believe that it was assumed (at least I always assumed) that in Pascal's Wager, the said person accepting the wager would accept God for all he is, including his various laws and commandments. Not just believe that God exists, and then continue forcing children to work in some coal factory and engaging in illegal price-fixing schemes and things of that nature. Even if that's not what Pascal intended, I think that would be a superior version of his wager.

[loinburger]

The whole problem with the Wager is that belief and/or faith is not something that cannot be gained out of practicality.

Let's say that Billy claims to be an Enlightened One. I for one don't believe that Billy is Enlightened, but other people do believe. One of these believers tells me that I will be put to the sword if I persist in my disbelief. Not wanting to be put to the sword, I claim that I also believe that Billy is an Enlightened One. Pascal was basically doing the same thing--he didn't believe in God, but said that we ought to claim that we believe in God so that God won't send us to Hell. Now I might be able to fool Billy the Enlightened One into thinking that I really believe that he is Enlightened, but God (being God) wouldn't fall for such tricks. Best to be honest with ones beliefs (except when dealing with schmucks who want to put you to the sword), I say.

[orange]

i too hate the idea that good athiests go to hell though bad christians go to heaven...it's like being bullied into believing in God, and that's not how it should be...

so if there's a heaven and hell, and I don't get into the former just becuase I didn't believe in God, than i'd rather go to hell anyway.

[Bereta_Eder]

you'll have company then orange

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by orange
i too hate the idea that good athiests go to hell though bad christians go to heaven...

Who said that?

[lightblue]

Yep rather go to what pious christians would call hell (bar with lots of booze, gambling and loose women) than what they would call heaven (Sunday morning Bible club with coffee and cake).

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


Who said that?

Any fundamentalist/Born Again Christian.

[orange]

the major belief of protestants is that you are saved by God's grace alone...so believing in God and believing that Jesus is his son is all you need to do

not that I like Catholocism that much...but at least they emphazise the importance of being a good person and doing the right thing as being the key to heaven, rather than just faith...

[orange]

paitkis - see you in hell! (and I mean that in the best possible way!! )

[Boris Godunov]

Perhaps, as the cruelest punishment of all, Hell for me will be a Bible-thumper revival meeting. God would have to be one nasty mofo to do that to me...

[lightblue]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Perhaps, as the cruelest punishment of all, Hell for me will be a Bible-thumper revival meeting. God would have to be one nasty mofo to do that to me...

I suppose everyone ends up in the same place then