Good atheists go to heaven. Bad Christians do not.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Asher

Don't you see the paradox?

Creationists ask why God would need to be created in order to create the world, others ask why the World needs to be created to exist.

They're both saying the same thing, but the Creationists are a bit too out there considering there's zero evidence of it. And plenty against it.

umm

the world needs to be created to exist based upon scientif evidence (and I mean created as in there must be some cause that caused the world to form)

now win you get down into how the universe came into existence you come into a more complicated question in physics (Hawking and others have written about what could have happened)

our universe obeys laws of causality and the like, a God outside of the universe would not need to obey these laws

I would recommend reading some philosophy (particularly that of Time)

Jon Miller

[KrazyHorse]

But a lot of scientists are religious (about as many as are nonreligious). And a scientists job is not one condusive to having a lot of faith

Scientists (as a whole) are much less religious than the population that surrounds them. The least religious scientists are...physicists and mathematicians.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
our universe obeys laws of causality and the like, a God outside of the universe would not need to obey these laws

Good show, my friend!

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse

Our bodies, for instance, are so complex, that the odds of them just evolving over a long period time is like 1 in centillion (680 zeros)

The odds of you being born were pretty highly improbable too. This is a perfect chance to apply the anthropic principle with no logical fallacy.

You have to show that intelligence of any kind is impossibly unlikey to have evolved in nature.

I think that saying that there must be a creator (at any point in the universe's evolution) and that is God is going down the wrong road (from my position as a Christian and a theist)

it needs to be a choice, not some A -> B -> C

Jon Miller

[KrazyHorse]

How do you know that the Universe follows the laws of causality, Jon?

Just because it is now doesn't mean it has always been so.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Apocalypse

Yes. Change makes life interesting. I like when things change, especially when I would get back something nice like love.

then I would suggest that you search for it

the search is somewhat ongoing (and I have derailed at times)

it was highly personal for me, so good luck

Jon Miller

[KrazyHorse]

I think that saying that there must be a creator (at any point in the universe's evolution) and that is God is going down the wrong road (from my position as a Christian and a theist)

it needs to be a choice, not some A -> B -> C

I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that God is more clever than to leave his tracks on the Universe? If so, then I have no argument with you. There is no possible way for me to disprove that God created the Universe.

Those I have problems with are people who try and prove that God did such-and-such because it would have been impossible without him. I suspect that this is what Cloud9 was trying to do, and demonstrated the flaw in his logic.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Apocalypse

There are Roman records of his crucifixion. I'd find them right now, but this thread is moving too quickly and at the moment I'm spending all my time replying. Maybe once it slows down.

This is just plain wrong, sorry:

"There are no surviving Roman records of the First Century that refer to, nor are there any Jewish records that support the accounts in the Christian gospels --- except one.

In Rome, in the year 93, Josephus published his lengthy history of the Jews. "

Notice it was written 60 years after Jesus died. That's it. And his text is highly controversial, many theologians believe he was just making it up. It certianly is not contemporary.

Another good source:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/scott_oser/hojfaq.html

And:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/2850/JesusHist.html

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
then I would suggest that you search for it

the search is somewhat ongoing (and I have derailed at times)

it was highly personal for me, so good luck

I do search. But right now I am unable to reach even the emotion of really liking something. I have found someone that I should love, someone that I really care what happens to. I don't love her though.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse

But a lot of scientists are religious (about as many as are nonreligious). And a scientists job is not one condusive to having a lot of faith

Scientists (as a whole) are much less religious than the population that surrounds them. The least religious scientists are...physicists and mathematicians.

yes, but there are physicists and mathematicians which are religious

and 100 years ago it was biologists which were the least religiouos

I personally think it has to do with searching for explanations of what was superstition results in throwing away the good in religion with the superstition in religion

Jon Miller

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I suspect that this is what Cloud9 was trying to do, and demonstrated the flaw in his logic.

Eh, um!

What flaws?

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse

I think that saying that there must be a creator (at any point in the universe's evolution) and that is God is going down the wrong road (from my position as a Christian and a theist)

it needs to be a choice, not some A -> B -> C

I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that God is more clever than to leave his tracks on the Universe? If so, then I have no argument with you. There is no possible way for me to disprove that God created the Universe.

Those I have problems with are people who try and prove that God did such-and-such because it would have been impossible without him. I suspect that this is what Cloud9 was trying to do, and demonstrated the flaw in his logic.

to your first statement

yes

sorry all, I got to go now

good luck Apocalypse

bye all

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
How do you know that the Universe follows the laws of causality, Jon?

Just because it is now doesn't mean it has always been so.

It seems to.

Physics takes it on faith that it does (for the most part).

Jon Miller

[Pekka]

apocalypse, how do you define love? (not trying to threadjack).. my definiton is if you are ready to die for him/her, then you love.

[Jon Miller]

I want to talk more with you all

come on again tomorrow

Jon Miller