Pledge of Alligiance - Unconstitutional?

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

It has been ruled unconstitutional, I believe, to display the Ten Commandments in public schools, has it not? Given that, how would you say the mentioning of God in the Pledge isn't a similar violation?

Because the Pledge isn't related to a specific religion. No matter what people say monotheism isn't a religion, it is simply a type of religion. There is nothing about establishment of types of religion in there.

You honestly believe that sort of hair-splitting and trick of semantics makes this constitutional?

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Guynemer
Oh, and re: being ostracized, let me tell you a story.

One day, in high school (a public school, mind you), we were all called down to an assembly; none of us really knew ahead of time what was going on, it hadn't been previously announced or anything. So we all sit down, and programs are passed around. Apparently, some group from Eastern Michigan University (IIRC) were going to sing. No big whoop. But then I looked at the songs in the program--hymns, spirituals, various Christian tunes of all sorts.

So I turned to look at my girlfriend at the time--the only Jew in a school numbering over 1,500 students. We just got up and left, went to the library. No one bugged us or anything. But keep this in mind--we were 17 years old, we were two of the top students in school, and we were well known to most of the faculty via academics and extracirricular activities. Do you think some of the Muslim students, or the Wiccan students, or the Hindu students, or the Buddhist students, or the Jain students, or my fellow atheist students, would have felt as comfortable getting up and leaving? What if they were 7 instead of 17?

A couple months later, as part of my law project on religion in schools, I had the opportunity to ask the principal about that assembly. He said that it was allowable to have them sing Christian songs to the entire school, because "it was a showcase of their singing ability, not of the songs themselves."

Would you have felt the same if it had been The Haarlem Choir singing spirituals?

[Guynemer]

Yes. I thought I made that clear.

[Imran Siddiqui]

You honestly believe that sort of hair-splitting and trick of semantics makes this constitutional?

It isn't hair-splitting or semantics. It is, simply, the truth. 'Under God' in the Pledge is NOT unconstitutional, and the SCOTUS will affirm this. There is no establishment of religion by having a pledge where 'under God' is. After all the kids aren't forced to say the offending words. It is totally optional. I don't see how that makes an official state religion.

And Dr. Strangelove has a great point .

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Guynemer
Would I have been offended by the 'Star Spangled Banner'? No.

1) The religious references are in the third stanza.

2) If the Star Spangled Banner is permissible in your eyes, what makes it substantially different from the pledge?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Dino... I think it is in the 4th stanza:

Oh, say can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?


On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, now conceals, now discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines on the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner! O long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.


And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion
A home and a country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wiped out their foul footstep's pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.


Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

[DinoDoc]

Mea Culpa

[Imran Siddiqui]

It's ok .

You made a great point.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Guynemer
Yes. I thought I made that clear.

Yet another white man trying to repress black culture.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
It's ok .

You made a great point.

Ahem... and my point was, how often do you hear the fourth stanza being sung? Or the second or third, for that matter? If the fourth stanza were sung, yeah, that would be a problem.

Government employees should not be required to lead private citizens in declarations of faith or religion. What is so hard to understand about that? EDIT: Make that, "Government employees should not, in their official capacity as government employees, lead private citizens in declarations of faith or religion." More in line with what I was clumsily trying to say in the first place.



Oh, and Dr. S:

[Saint Marcus]

States normally do not tell private schools what to teach.

Neither did Pakistan. See what happened.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Guynemer


Ahem... and my point was, how often do you hear the fourth stanza being sung?

Quite often. Around here when it is sung at functions, games, etc. it is usually sung in its entireity.

[Boris Godunov]

I can safely say I've never, ever heard anything other than the first stanza of the anthem being sung. I didn't even know their were 4 stanzas.

[MrFun]

To some extent, the ONE God part of the pledge fits well, because all denominations of Judahism, Christianity, and Islam believe in the same God.



Extreme liberals give moderate liberals like me, a bad name and bad rep.

I say, if you are not compelled to say the pledge, then let it be -- no law can constitutionally force people to not say something that they wish to say.

Hell, we allow white supremacist groups to express their beliefs.

Anyway, that is my four cents.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I can safely say I've never, ever heard anything other than the first stanza of the anthem being sung. I didn't even know their were 4 stanzas.

I've seen those New York maps of the United States. You're barely aware of the rest of the country.