Pledge of Alligiance - Unconstitutional?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by MrFun
To some extent, the ONE God part of the pledge fits well, because all denominations of Judahism, Christianity, and Islam believe in the same God.

There are many more denominations than those three, and there are people without any.

Extreme liberals give moderate liberals like me, a bad name and bad rep.

I say, if you are not compelled to say the pledge, then let it be -- no law can constitutionally force people to not say something that they wish to say.

There is a difference between reciting the Pledge independently and having a public school employee lead everyone in a mass declaration of the pledge.

Hell, we allow white supremacist groups to express their beliefs.

What? I guarantee you that White Supremacist doctrine is not allowed in public schools.

Anyway, that is my four cents.

More like $.001.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


I've seen those New York maps of the United States. You're barely aware of the rest of the country.

There's life west of the Hudson?!

Considering I've only lived 3 years in NYC, and much of the rest of that time was in areas where one would expect full-blown, chest-thumping patriotism, I will still assert any singing of any other than the 1st stanza is extremely rare.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Guynemer
It is state establishment of religion--you bet your ass it's unconstitutional to have government employees lead children in reciting it!

And, simply from a practical standpoint, how likely to do think it is that this could EVER be changed through the legislature in this ****ing country, where (according to Time) over half the population thinks that Revelations will come true? Any politican who stood up for what is right in this issue would have his or her ass bounced out of Washington so fast it would make your head spin. Do you really think 99 Senators think "under God" belongs in the Pledge? HELL no. I'd bet you that, deep down inside, half or more of them knows that it doesn't belong there. But if they said that, they wouldn't get reelected.

If we can't count on our elected officials to do what is right, all he have left is the courts.

so you think that elected officials are very different in their beleifs and wishs then the popullace they represent??

Jon Miller

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Considering I've only lived 3 years in NYC, and much of the rest of that time was in areas where one would expect full-blown, chest-thumping patriotism, I will still assert any singing of any other than the 1st stanza is extremely rare.

Not in my experience.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
(1) Why does 'regularity" matter? If the teacher had required the little girl to get down on her knees and pray for her eternal soul even once would have been enough I'm certain.

One is history.
One is a mantra, which many schools force students to say over and over again until its words and meaning are second nature to them.

It's actually a form of propaganda but since the Pledge delivers a "positive" message it's considered okay.

(2) By now the 1950s is history.

But so is yesterday.

(3) Canada actually pays the Catholic church to perform a governmental service, and it does so with predjudice against schools run by other churches which do not receive such funding.

It does?
I didn't think the Catholic Church got anything for the Catholic Schools.
There are two school boards for each region (usually), a Catholic and a Protestant (the Protestant has zero religion where I live, and is called 'Public' now). They're not actually part of the churches, they're just a different schoolboard with religious beliefs.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Asher

It does?
I didn't think the Catholic Church got anything for the Catholic Schools.
There are two school boards for each region (usually), a Catholic and a Protestant (the Protestant has zero religion where I live, and is called 'Public' now). They're not actually part of the churches, they're just a different schoolboard with religious beliefs.

Well, what exactly is the relationship between the Catholic church and the Catholic school system? Do they pay church officials to oversee the schools? In what way is this "Protestant" board Protestant? If it has no affiliation with any denomination, has a completely secular board and a completely secular curricullum than I fail to see how it is a "Protestant" system, unless it is designated as such simply because it is not "Catholic". If it was at one time actually Protestant than I'd have to ask how it came to be secularized.

[Asher]

It has to do with very ancient agreements when Canada was formed. It's very stupid, IMO, but that's how it is.

Quebec wouldn't join unless we guaranteed a nationwide Catholic system, and the rest of the nation was predominantly Protestant. Over time, the local Protestant schoolboard changed to just being Public, and there is zero religion in it. The Catholic system remains Catholic.

I don't think there's any relation between the Catholic Church and the school system, other than they share the same religion.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


What do you mean "not in all versions"? Shinto was the official state religion of Japan. The very basis of the religion was the deity of the emporer!

Shinto was practiced outside of Japan, IIRC...

Now I'm getting out of my depth. I'm not much of a relifgious scholar when it comes to Eastern practices, but IIRC there are straight ancestor-worship versions of Shinto where the Emperor doesn't enter into it...

[KrazyHorse]

In Quebec, as I've stated before, the lines are now drawn linguistically instead of religiously.

The schools themselves have nothing to do with the religions they're supposed to belong to; they're just, as Asher says, remnants of a forgotten past.

"Catholic" school board schools don't teach the Catechism etc. (at least not here). "Protestant" school board schools don't teach about Martin Luther. They're just names by now...

It's not the Catholic Church that runs Catholic schools, BTW; the last time that happened was in the early 1960s. Now they're run like any other public school board. There are Muslims and Hindus etc. all attending "Catholic" or "Protestant" schools, and their religious beliefs aren't being trampled on...

[civman2000]

The worst thing of all about this decision is that it will be overturned ...IT's about time.

Something I noticed on 1 dollar bills:
At one place it says "Novem Ordo Seclorum" (i dont have one right now so i might be wrong), which I'm pretty sure in latin means "New Secular Order". How ironic that just an inch or so away it says "In God we trust"

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


so you think that elected officials are very different in their beleifs and wishs then the popullace they represent??

Jon Miller

Very different? No. But I think they understand the Constitution better than the populace they represent, and they understand when something is in conflict with it.

You know, on second thought, despite most Americans wanting "under God" in the Pledge, I'm quite sure that many--perhaps even most--of them understand that it doesn't belong there. They want it there anyway, because people like having their religions validated.

Honestly, I'd get a perverse sort of glee if the Pledge said "one nation, godless," sticking it to all the people who held a different religious belief. But I understand that should not be the case. I wish the religious conservatives could see that.

[Ramo]

No matter what people say monotheism isn't a religion, it is simply a type of religion. There is nothing about establishment of types of religion in there.

What about Christianity? Or Islam? Are those "types" of religions also? Is the government supporting those ok, but the government supporting the RCC or Sunni doctrine wrong?

BTW, by supporting monotheism, the gov't supports all monotheistic faiths, so it indeed makes those state endorsed religions.

It merely says we cannot establish a religion. Saying nothing about endorsement or even giving money

What do you consider establishing a state religion, if not using public money to endorse it or giving churches that support it money?

Do you consider England's current relationship with the Anglican church unconstitutional (edit: if we were in their situation)?

[KrazyHorse]

Honestly, I'd get a perverse sort of glee if the Pledge said "one nation, godless,"

Or "One nation, under the Almighty Dollar"?

[Ramo]

Incidentally, the pledge was originally created by a pinko.

Originally the author had "with equality, liberty, and justice for all." but he dumped the equality bit because he didn't want to piss off the school administration people (he was a teacher).

Kinda ironic given rightist support for the pledge.

[klesh]

Well since they added the god bit in in 1954 to thwart the goodless commies, isn't it 'bout time to take it out?

Just throw the entire thing away, reminds me of Berlin, 1930's anyway.

-FMK.