The differences between America and Europe

[Az]

I must be getting old. Basically : judaism is bad , because it's archaic, and so is every religion.

[Az]

Zobo : well , you could see what muhammad did. he captured many territories , in the name of religion. The Quran was fully written in his end version , at the next millenium.

[morb]

Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior


The Muslim Prophet's word aren't at the source of the violance of the Muslim world (because the violance exists).

Christian is quite a peacefull religion. Killing people is forbidden as men are too sinner to be wise enough to decide who must die or live. Since Christian world was the theatre of extremly bloody religious wars. Of course (even if Human madness is too blame too), the real reasons were mostly economics and politicals.

My point of view is not to argue that Muslim world is not violant. But to argue that this violance have politics and economical roots. The religion and the faith is only the fuel for the accomplishment of the goals.

what worries me about this is that politics are motivated by a strongly conservative interpretation of religion. but religion is a creature absent of reason. therefore, it isn't even right to call one interpretation of religion wrong or incorrect BECAUSE its an interpretation.

The countries of the west will never wage full scale wars against militant muslim states even if nessesary for their security or survival for a simple ideological reason. too many people will view such actions as "holy wars" or "war against religion." this is something the US in particular heavily frowns upon as its vary foundation was based on freedom from religious prosecution. in theory this is how things SHOULD be. but in reality, it is all too easy to use religion to wage war and the US will gladly tie its own hands even when faced with grave danger. it doesn't matter how bizzar, obscure, unbeleveble or twisted the religion may be (ahem, scientology). this is truely one big gigantic gaping hole in the US "armor" and I think it will come to be exploited more and more in the future as limits are tested and boundaries are set.

on a final thought, perhaps islam is not a militant religion by its nature. but the people who are fighting political wars against the west certainly make it seem so.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Originally posted by Dalgetti
I must be getting old. Basically : judaism is bad , because it's archaic, and so is every religion.

At least, you don't have pedophil rabbin ...

[Kropotkin]

Originally posted by morb
on a final thought, perhaps islam is not a militant religion by its nature. but the people who are fighting political wars against the west certainly make it seem so.

It would be even stranger if those that waged political war didn't make it seem like a militant religion.

I've meet enough muslim pacifists and feminists to really take the hate-mongering of Al-Quiada and others seriously.

[DanS]

"Oh bollocks. We hand out x-times more foreign aid. We have a similar level of immigration. And the US has always been as protectionist as the EU. And we spend just about 1 percentage point less of GDP on the military - 1.5 % after dubya's latest budget."

I'm going to need to see those immigration numbers again on another thread. (One that isn't so serious .) The 2000 Census puts the number of immigrants at 31 million.

"You want to spread western values with fire and sword ? Are you really nuts ?"

The potential of fire and sword can be pretty potent.

[Roland]

"I'm going to need to see those immigration numbers again on another thread."

Stats, stats, stats.....

"The potential of fire and sword can be pretty potent."

Especially the backfiring potential.

[DanS]

We would prefer not to use them for just this reason (and a couple of others).

[Ned]

What I find the most disturbing about the developments in the '90's are

- the increasing independence of Europe (although they like to say it is the US that ignores them);
- the weakness of Europe to handle affairs even in Europe;
- the unwillingness to help the US defend itself.

This last bit, the more I think about it given all we have done for Europe in the last century, make my blood boil with anger.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Originally posted by Ned

This last bit, the more I think about it given all we have done for Europe in the last century, make my blood boil with anger.

:???: crap !

The first western country to have send men on the soif of afghanistan to hunt down terrorist were British.

The problem is not that you want Europe as an ally, you want Europe as a puppet.

[DanS]

You guys take foreign policy way too personally.

[Roland]

"- the increasing independence of Europe (although they like to say it is the US that ignores them);"

Some may say that. For my taste, you can't ignore us enough as long as you don't get in our way.

"- the weakness of Europe to handle affairs even in Europe"

Then get out of europe and don't try blocking our integration.

"- the unwillingness to help the US defend itself"

You can have any help in defending yourself. But we don't feel like having people killed for dubya's reelection.

[DanS]

Austria is probably one of the most extreme cases of that described in the article. How exactly did you stay out of the Cold War, Roland?

[Roland]

Extreme in what ? Military weakness ?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Roland
"you are operating under the assumption that US actions against a '2nd tier' power will bring the whole world in a union against it"

No, I meant those countries individually.

Well, Britain and France also have a nuclear deterent, but conventionally, they'd get rolled over. Russia only has a nuclear deterant, and would like collapse politically and economically if it went to war with the US. Only China could sustain a long war against the US, but it would still lose, and the US would likely remain unscathed.

The much vaunted Chinese air defenses I don't see as a serious problem. After all, Iraq purchased those same defenses, and they didn't do a damn bit of good in 1991 or since. Yugoslavia also had those defenses, and only managed to shoot down one US bomber (albeit the supposedly invisible stealth bomber).