Unspoken black/white segregation: Choice or societal structure?

[Carver]

Sikander, as I think you know: nation does not necessarily mean a parlaiment, a prime minister, circuit courts, appeals courts and a constitutional court.

na·tion Pronunciation Key (nshn)
n.

A relatively large group of people organized under a single, usually independent government; a country.
The territory occupied by such a group of people: All across the nation, people are voting their representatives out.
The government of a sovereign state.
A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality: “Historically the Ukrainians are an ancient nation which has persisted and survived through terrible calamity” (Robert Conquest).

A federation or tribe, especially one composed of Native Americans.
The territory occupied by such a federation or tribe.


Also:

nation

\Na"tion\, n. [F. nation, L. natio nation, race, orig., a being born, fr. natus, p. p. of nasci, to be born, for gnatus, gnasci, from the same root as E. kin. [root]44. See Kin kindred, and cf. Cognate, Natal, Native.] 1. (Ethnol.) A part, or division, of the people of the earth, distinguished from the rest by common descent, language, or institutions; a race; a stock.


A nation is a group of people that define themselves as such. Every African was born into a "kinderd" that "shared(ed) common customs, origins, history, and frequently language". They very much had national identities although they may be less discernable from a eurocentric perspective.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by moominparatrooper
Really, why should I? What kind of relevation can I expect to justify that kind of effort to learn more about a person I hold in contempt?

How can you hold someone in contempt when you know nothing about them and haven't bothered to learn about them?

That's pretty narrow-minded.

Orange:

While I understand a your reasoning, the assertion that Blacks and whites are equal, while technically true, in reality is false. The laws may be color-blind, but the enforcement of those laws is not. One need only look at racial profiling to see the evidence for this. What good is equality under the law if it is not practiced or enforced? Groups like the NAACP exist to act as advocates for those who find themselves a victim of unfair enforcement.

The fact is American society is not colorblind, it is overwhelmingly geared towards whites. Imagine yourself as a young black kid, and every day you are bombarded with imagery that promotes a white ideal. "Normal" families are white in America. Just watch sitcom TV (Notice how the first "Black" sitcom family, the Huxtables, was actually white in everything except skin color).

On top of that, every day you get reminded you're Black, and being Black is not a good thing. Like Bunnygrrl points out, Black people are immediately under suspicion as criminals when they go into many places. I was with my best friend from college in a clothing store and he was followed around by the security guard. I couldn't believe it, as my friend was well-dressed and well-spoken. But he was also the only Black male in the store. And when we left I brought it up, he shrugged and said he was used to it. USED to it.

And then you get the people who think that unless someone openly repudiates Farrakhan, then they support him. What kind of bull**** is that? And yes, Black people ARE expected, by whites at least, to act as representatives of their whole race. How many times have I heard people saying, justifying racism, "Oh, one time I saw this black guy doing this..." And bam, all Blacks must do that.

As for the mistrust...well, Toni Morrison put it best. No matter how close of friends she is with a white person, she says she always wonders, in the back of her mind, if the day comes when people turn against Blacks again, would this person stick with me or sell me out? I know you may not understand it, but you aren't Black and you likely never will. It has a lot do with the culturally institutionalized racism I mentioned above, but also the history of slavery, racism, the civil rights struggle, etc. Perhaps it is akin to the feeling of unease most whites get around a young black male, wondering in the back of their minds if he is a gang member/rapist/drug dealer/etc. ad infinitum.

From my own perspective, I have often wondered, should Pat Robertson seize power and institute a nation-wide round-up of homosexuals, just who among my straight friends (and even family) would stick up for me and put themselves at risk for me? I'm sure Jews living in Germany today have similar thoughts. Can we blame them?

[orange]

i'd challenge you to prove that the majority of central/west African societies were under 'independent' governments during the period of 1600-1700, and not simply under a 'might makes right' dictatorial cycle.

[orange]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Orange:

While I understand a your reasoning, the assertion that Blacks and whites are equal, while technically true, in reality is false. The laws may be color-blind, but the enforcement of those laws is not. One need only look at racial profiling to see the evidence for this. What good is equality under the law if it is not practiced or enforced? Groups like the NAACP exist to act as advocates for those who find themselves a victim of unfair enforcement.

I'm not necessarily against the NAACP or any other group, I just resent the implication that black pride is pride and white pride is racism. It's a double standard and it's unfair.

This thread is to examine the role of 'racial' organizations on racial segregation in society.

The fact is American society is not colorblind, it is overwhelmingly geared towards whites. Imagine yourself as a young black kid, and every day you are bombarded with imagery that promotes a white ideal. "Normal" families are white in America. Just watch sitcom TV (Notice how the first "Black" sitcom family, the Huxtables, was actually white in everything except skin color).

Lets face it - the majority of Americans ARE white. That's like going to Saudi Arabia and demanding there be an equal number of Christian churches and Mosques. It's not about racism - it's about what sells. And besides that, there are and have been PLENTY of shows with African Americans as the center of the show. Fresh Prince of Bel Air, Martin, Hanging with Mr. Cooper, In Living Color, The Bernie Mac show, The Cosbys, The Jeffersons (and that even had interracial couples!), and many MANY more.

On top of that, every day you get reminded you're Black, and being Black is not a good thing. Like Bunnygrrl points out, Black people are immediately under suspicion as criminals when they go into many places. I was with my best friend from college in a clothing store and he was followed around by the security guard. I couldn't believe it, as my friend was well-dressed and well-spoken. But he was also the only Black male in the store. And when we left I brought it up, he shrugged and said he was used to it. USED to it.

That does not justify segregating yourselves from whites simply because they're white or Affirmative Action. Your friend had nothing to worry about because he wasn't breaking the law, and nothing was done to him because he wasn't. He's in a store, and the security is hired to look out for the store's best interest. If he gets tailed because he is black, that shows something about the security guard, NOT ALL WHITES and certainly not the store he works for.

And then you get the people who think that unless someone openly repudiates Farrakhan, then they support him. What kind of bull**** is that? And yes, Black people ARE expected, by whites at least, to act as representatives of their whole race. How many times have I heard people saying, justifying racism, "Oh, one time I saw this black guy doing this..." And bam, all Blacks must do that.

Same thing. I don't say things like that. It shouldn't be used to judge all whites. Hell you're doing the same thing that you're speaking out against! You're claiming that there's a problem when "Whites say this" about "Blacks doing that"!!!

As for the mistrust...well, Toni Morrison put it best. No matter how close of friends she is with a white person, she says she always wonders, in the back of her mind, if the day comes when people turn against Blacks again, would this person stick with me or sell me out? I know you may not understand it, but you aren't Black and you likely never will.

Being black does not make you understand interracial relations better.

If you're my friend, I won't sell you out. So judge me on that, and not what my skin color determines I'll do in such a situation.

It has a lot do with the culturally institutionalized racism I mentioned above, but also the history of slavery, racism, the civil rights struggle, etc. Perhaps it is akin to the feeling of unease most whites get around a young black male, wondering in the back of their minds if he is a gang member/rapist/drug dealer/etc. ad infinitum.

I don't feel that way about someone. I may feel that way judging by their outward apperance, as in clothing, facial expressions, demeanor, stance...but never their race.

From my own perspective, I have often wondered, should Pat Robertson seize power and institute a nation-wide round-up of homosexuals, just who among my straight friends (and even family) would stick up for me and put themselves at risk for me?

You should know that they all would, myself included, and you're only someone I know over the internet!

I'm sure Jews living in Germany today have similar thoughts. Can we blame them?

Yes. They shouldn't feel this way towards all Germans or non-Jews simply because a moron somehow got into power and brainwashed people. Contrary to popular belief, there were those who did help the Jews during the 30s and 40s under Nazi occupation.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Carver
Sikander, as I think you know: nation does not necessarily mean a parlaiment, a prime minister, circuit courts, appeals courts and a constitutional court.

na·tion Pronunciation Key (nshn)
n.

A relatively large group of people organized under a single, usually independent government; a country.
The territory occupied by such a group of people: All across the nation, people are voting their representatives out.
The government of a sovereign state.
A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality: “Historically the Ukrainians are an ancient nation which has persisted and survived through terrible calamity” (Robert Conquest).

A federation or tribe, especially one composed of Native Americans.
The territory occupied by such a federation or tribe.


Also:

nation

\Na"tion\, n. [F. nation, L. natio nation, race, orig., a being born, fr. natus, p. p. of nasci, to be born, for gnatus, gnasci, from the same root as E. kin. [root]44. See Kin kindred, and cf. Cognate, Natal, Native.] 1. (Ethnol.) A part, or division, of the people of the earth, distinguished from the rest by common descent, language, or institutions; a race; a stock.


A nation is a group of people that define themselves as such. Every African was born into a "kinderd" that "shared(ed) common customs, origins, history, and frequently language". They very much had national identities although they may be less discernable from a eurocentric perspective.

Such a broad definition is practically useless. It is certainly useless enough that it doesn't support your criticism of someone else who has a less broad (more useful) definition of the term nation. So if your point is that enslaved Africans were people, then we are in agreement. Beyond that nothing you have said has enough meaning to elicit either agreement or disagreement given that you want to define the terms of the debate so broadly.

"A nation is a group of people that define themselves as such."

How many terms in our language are allowed such an open definition? How useful are these terms? How many people consider "The Nation of Islam" to be a 'real' nation as opposed to a 'self styled' nation?

[orange]

i am a nation

Gibsie is the nation of Ispam

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
he also argued that Blacks should take their rights by what ever means necessary (as any oprressed people have the right to do

Would I be correct if I said that you believe Blacks in america to be oppressed people? If so, what rights do you think they should take "by any means necessary"?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by orange
I'm not necessarily against the NAACP or any other group, I just resent the implication that black pride is pride and white pride is racism. It's a double standard and it's unfair.

This thread is to examine the role of 'racial' organizations on racial segregation in society.

Again, were there genuine racial equality I would agree with you, but there isn't. Black pride is the assertion of minority's equality (not superiority) in the face of a society that, institutionally, treats Blacks as inferiors.

Lets face it - the majority of Americans ARE white. That's like going to Saudi Arabia and demanding there be an equal number of Christian churches and Mosques.

Except Saudi Arabia is a totalitarian dictatorship, the United States is a democracy, and one of the things the Founding Fathers certainly wanted was the means for minorities to be protected from the tyranny of a majority. But at any rate, I wasn't demanding anything of the kind. I was simply trying to get you to see it from the perspective of someone who sees the world in a very different way than you do.

It's not about racism - it's about what sells.

And hence why all the liquor ads go into urban Black neighborhoods, yes. But why is that?

And besides that, there are and have been PLENTY of shows with African Americans as the center of the show. Fresh Prince of Bel Air, Martin, Hanging with Mr. Cooper, In Living Color, The Bernie Mac show, The Cosbys, The Jeffersons (and that even had interracial couples!), and many MANY more.

Notice that every single one of those shows depicts Blacks living as middle-to-upper class families. The only sitcom of an Urban Black family, to the best of my knowledge, is the PJs. And that one uses claymation. Your MANY, however, is a drop in the bucket compared to the white-dominated airwaves. And again, I'm not bringing up saying "We must change TV immediately and institute equal footing for Black sitcoms." It was merely another illustration of reinforcing the subconscious notion that it is a white man's world.

That does not justify segregating yourselves from whites simply because they're white or Affirmative Action.

You're assuming these Blacks made the conscious choice to do so. How many of them grew up in urban areas where there were no whites and thus their contact with them was limited? How many of them were maybe excluded by whites when younger, so they are accustomed to the segregated atmosphere? People will gravitate to those with whom they are most comfortable and have the most in common.

My college friend also explained to me about how, when he's around white people, he speaks totally differently than when he's around Blacks. When I noticed this, he points out that if he spoke around his Black friends like he does to white people, they would look at him like he's nuts. And of course, if he spoke to white people like he did his Black friends, it would likely institute a panic.

Your friend had nothing to worry about because he wasn't breaking the law, and nothing was done to him because he wasn't.

If you think Black people who have done nothing wrong are safe just because the law wasn't broken, you're naive. See my original post i.e. unequal enforcement. At any rate, once again I was pointing out an example wherein a Black person experiences something that white people, by and large, do not. It was not saying anything about all whites, but showing perhaps why Black people feel oppressed living in a society where they are assumed criminals. And this happens to him all the time wherever he goes. It's not an isolated thing.

Same thing. I don't say things like that. It shouldn't be used to judge all whites. Hell you're doing the same thing that you're speaking out against! You're claiming that there's a problem when "Whites say this" about "Blacks doing that"!!!

No, I wasn't judging all whites, I was judging those who make such stupid statements based on personal negative experience. No where did I say all whites say things like that. I certainly don't, and I'm a whitey-whitey white white.

Being black does not make you understand interracial relations better.

Of course not, never said it did. What I was saying is that simce you can't understand all of the factors that go into being Black in this country and all of the psychological impact of being such, you will never understand what it is like to be Black. I accepted long ago that no matter how much I tried, I will never fully know what it is to be Black. You look at things from a white perspective, you can't help it. That's why you have this imaginary concept that the law protects everyone equally and the playing field is level. Those things are true--for white people. So don't hold it against Blacks that they see it from a Black perspective, and that is different and full of a million different nuances and factors that you and I just will never grasp.

If you're my friend, I won't sell you out. So judge me on that, and not what my skin color determines I'll do in such a situation.

Easy to say, but until the situation arises, who can say?

I don't feel that way about someone. I may feel that way judging by their outward apperance, as in clothing, facial expressions, demeanor, stance...but never their race.

Hey, even Jesse Jackson admitted that if he's walking down the street at night and he hears someone walking behing him, he's relieved if it's a white person. And again, their clothing, expression and demeanor...what you seem to be implying is that if the Black person dresses and acts white, then you'd be ok, but if not...?

You should know that they all would, myself included, and you're only someone I know over the internet!

I believe you, and everyon who says so, but it's always in the back of my mind. And it's for my own family. Yeah, I wonder if such a situation would happen, would my own mom and dad...? That may seem incredibly unfair, but it's not something I want to think. It is, however, one of the nasty side effects of being subject to cultural bigotry.

Yes. They shouldn't feel this way towards all Germans or non-Jews simply because a moron somehow got into power and brainwashed people. Contrary to popular belief, there were those who did help the Jews during the 30s and 40s under Nazi occupation.

There were those who helped...but most did not. And worse, many who had been friends turned their backs on them. Of course, many of those did it out of fear. Nevertheless, whether or not some helped out is irrelevant. It's the fact that it happened and those who were the victims now understandably are wary about it. It doesn't mean they hate Germans of today, but there is a little less trust. And I think, while it's unfortunate, it's totally understandable. And it's also unrealistic to expect the mistrust such a thing would engender to vanish in the snap of a finger.

[Boris Godunov]

Oh, and I have to say Re: Hitler brainwashing people.

Um, you don't really mean that? Anti-semitism, even in violent form, was alive and strong in Germany and, well, most of the world well before Hitler came to power. He may have been able to channel the power of anti-semitism like no one ever before, but he certainly didn't brainwash anybody. The hate was already there, he just fed upon it.

[orange]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Again, were there genuine racial equality I would agree with you, but there isn't. Black pride is the assertion of minority's equality (not superiority) in the face of a society that, institutionally, treats Blacks as inferiors.

Under the law there IS genuine racial equality! What some 'black' organizations feel is equality some others may feel as unfair...so if a 'white' organization arises to try to look after its own interests, it should not be deemed racist only because it is a 'white' organization so long as 'black' organizations exist.

Except Saudi Arabia is a totalitarian dictatorship, the United States is a democracy, and one of the things the Founding Fathers certainly wanted was the means for minorities to be protected from the tyranny of a majority.

Government has nothing to do with this. I'm talking about the expectations. If you need to, replace the scenario with one involving an American family wondering why there aren't TV shows where English is spoken.

But at any rate, I wasn't demanding anything of the kind. I was simply trying to get you to see it from the perspective of someone who sees the world in a very different way than you do.

As you go on to state, I will never see that anyway...so why not just go with what is fair and equal - judging everyone on an individual basis.

And hence why all the liquor ads go into urban Black neighborhoods, yes. But why is that?

Not just "black" urban neighborhoods, urban neighborhoods in general. And yes, it's because those ads are most effective in that area. That's just the way it is, it's not a racial thing.

Notice that every single one of those shows depicts Blacks living as middle-to-upper class families. The only sitcom of an Urban Black family, to the best of my knowledge, is the PJs. And that one uses claymation. Your MANY, however, is a drop in the bucket compared to the white-dominated airwaves. And again, I'm not bringing up saying "We must change TV immediately and institute equal footing for Black sitcoms." It was merely another illustration of reinforcing the subconscious notion that it is a white man's world.

So in other words you're saying that being black and middle-upper class is an unrealistic scenario? Now who is being prejudiced?

More importantly - how many white sitcoms do you know of people who are poor? Who wants to watch a sitcom about poor unsuccessful people??

You're assuming these Blacks made the conscious choice to do so. How many of them grew up in urban areas where there were no whites and thus their contact with them was limited? How many of them were maybe excluded by whites when younger, so they are accustomed to the segregated atmosphere? People will gravitate to those with whom they are most comfortable and have the most in common.

So skin color makes people compatable?

My college friend also explained to me about how, when he's around white people, he speaks totally differently than when he's around Blacks. When I noticed this, he points out that if he spoke around his Black friends like he does to white people, they would look at him like he's nuts. And of course, if he spoke to white people like he did his Black friends, it would likely institute a panic.

Well then that's his own hang up. This quote also implies that you and he both feel that blacks are inferior to whites because of the way they conduct themselves.

I seem to think it's more about people being 'themselves' around their friends, and being more proper around people they're not friends with - so that they make a 'good impression'...not necessarily about race here.

If you think Black people who have done nothing wrong are safe just because the law wasn't broken, you're naive. See my original post i.e. unequal enforcement. At any rate, once again I was pointing out an example wherein a Black person experiences something that white people, by and large, do not.

BS...if you're a teenager in a store you are labeled suspicious as well, becuase you're statistically more likely to steal. They watch me like a hawk because I'm young - I don't care! I don't do anything wrong, and I walk out proving to them "ha, teenagers don't necessarily steal things" and help break the steriotype.

It was not saying anything about all whites, but showing perhaps why Black people feel oppressed living in a society where they are assumed criminals. And this happens to him all the time wherever he goes. It's not an isolated thing.

I don't think that way...and I know many people who don't...i think you're blowing this a *bit* out of proportion. I admit it happens, and I admit that people do have racial prejudices, but under the law there are no such prejudices.

No, I wasn't judging all whites, I was judging those who make such stupid statements based on personal negative experience. No where did I say all whites say things like that. I certainly don't, and I'm a whitey-whitey white white.

And African Americans should do the same. Judge people individually, without regard to skin color. Approach a white person the same way you would approach a black person, have the same opportunities to become close with everyone that you get along with, not just those that are the same skin color.

Of course not, never said it did. What I was saying is that simce you can't understand all of the factors that go into being Black in this country and all of the psychological impact of being such, you will never understand what it is like to be Black. I accepted long ago that no matter how much I tried, I will never fully know what it is to be Black. You look at things from a white perspective, you can't help it. That's why you have this imaginary concept that the law protects everyone equally and the playing field is level. Those things are true--for white people. So don't hold it against Blacks that they see it from a Black perspective, and that is different and full of a million different nuances and factors that you and I just will never grasp.

It's not imaginary. The laws do infact protect everyone equally. Individuals are the problem. And those individuals that are the problem should be taken care of accordingly.

Easy to say, but until the situation arises, who can say?

I can. I don't value my own life that much, and would sacrifice it in defense of ideals. (no, that does not mean I'd be a terrorist )

Hey, even Jesse Jackson admitted that if he's walking down the street at night and he hears someone walking behing him, he's relieved if it's a white person. And again, their clothing, expression and demeanor...what you seem to be implying is that if the Black person dresses and acts white, then you'd be ok, but if not...?

Here we go again, why is it 'white' for a black person to have a scrubby appearance? It seems you are the one with the prejudice yet again, and by this I mean no offense, but examine your words here...

a black person is dressing and acting 'white' simply if he is dressed nicely and does not have a poor outward appearance??

I believe you, and everyon who says so, but it's always in the back of my mind. And it's for my own family. Yeah, I wonder if such a situation would happen, would my own mom and dad...? That may seem incredibly unfair, but it's not something I want to think. It is, however, one of the nasty side effects of being subject to cultural bigotry.

I hope you would know that your parents would defend you, not only because they know and love you, but also because they created you

Have a *little* faith in humanity, won't you?

There were those who helped...but most did not. And worse, many who had been friends turned their backs on them. Of course, many of those did it out of fear. Nevertheless, whether or not some helped out is irrelevant. It's the fact that it happened and those who were the victims now understandably are wary about it. It doesn't mean they hate Germans of today, but there is a little less trust. And I think, while it's unfortunate, it's totally understandable. And it's also unrealistic to expect the mistrust such a thing would engender to vanish in the snap of a finger.

Well of course, individual well being usually takes presidence over the well being of others, that's to be expected...but the truly brave know that united - no force can overcome the power of ideals when defended.

[orange]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Oh, and I have to say Re: Hitler brainwashing people.

Um, you don't really mean that? Anti-semitism, even in violent form, was alive and strong in Germany and, well, most of the world well before Hitler came to power. He may have been able to channel the power of anti-semitism like no one ever before, but he certainly didn't brainwash anybody. The hate was already there, he just fed upon it.

I'm not talking about Anti-semitism, there will always be some hatred for most any racial group...and yes I realize there was a good deal of it in Europe at the time, especially Germany, i was speaking about Hitler's brainwashing them to believe in his ideals, both socially racially and politically, as well as the superiority of the "German" race.

[moomin]

Originally posted by MrFun
For one thing, you would learn that as one example that proved Malcolm X's moderation of his ideology, he wanted to participate as a speaker at the March on Washington protest, with Martin Luther King Jr. This protest included BOTH whites, and blacks.

If you got a lot to apologise for, and MX sure did, "moderating" your stance is not enough. I want to see open and public confession and recognition of own guilt. There are a lot of ex-commies here in Europe who managed that once they grew up and understood what it was they had supported. MX didn't fo nearly enough to take him seriously in this respect.

X was hoping for an invitation, but never received one from Martin Luther King Jr., for his own reasons that I am not certain about.

Perhaps because MLK happened to be a respectable person?

[moomin]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
How can you hold someone in contempt when you know nothing about them and haven't bothered to learn about them?

That's pretty narrow-minded.

You know, the world is full of deluded nutcases, and their ardent proponents, always suggesting one should read more about their particular hero to realize how brilliant they really were. I've heard the abouve from black-rasism proponents, commies, nazis, various religeous cultists, randites and countless other losers who feel their clearly deranged beliefs merit further scrutiny. They don't, at least not unless you pay me for the time and effort.

As for MX, I know he stated repeatedly that whites where devils and that he never bother to retract those nuggets of brilliant insight. 'Nuff said. I'll read up on MX when you promise to read up on Torquemada, who held to the belief that "fags are turds" and didn't bother changing his tune either.

And I'm sure we'll both find lots of mitigating circumstances if we put our minds to it. This, however, does not in the slightest affect how I feel judgement should be passed on those who spout various racist and anti-democratic creeds here and now, happily claiming these public hatemongers as sources of inspiration.

[SpencerH]

Notice that every single one of those shows depicts Blacks living as middle-to-upper class families. The only sitcom of an Urban Black family, to the best of my knowledge, is the PJs. And that one uses claymation.

Just for informations sake, the show "Goodtimes" was about a working class african-american family.

[SpencerH]

BS...if you're a teenager in a store you are labeled suspicious as well, becuase you're statistically more likely to steal. They watch me like a hawk because I'm young - I don't care! I don't do anything wrong, and I walk out proving to them "ha, teenagers don't necessarily steal things" and help break the steriotype.

I used to wander around suspiciously touching stuff just to drive em crazy.

IMO racial (or any other) profiling is not a good example of inequality under the law. For the most part, the miscarriages of justice occur because poor people must use public defenders who are often not up to the job. Its pretty clear to me from watching a lot of courttv that if you have the money to hire a good lawyer they can deal with the bogus prosecution charges and sometimes the non-bogus ones as well.