Am I a anti-semitist?

[Panag]

Originally posted by Goingonit
There were Jews living in Israel prior to Zionism.

Israel is the biblical homeland of the Jews.

ha , at last , some one , who can read and who can study , .....

TRUE

have a nice day

[Natan]

I do a killer Russian accent (it even makes Russians laugh) and a decent Chinese/Japanese/generic east Asian one.

Why would it matter whether Chris is Jewish or not?

[S. Kroeze]

I really begin to suspect that I am wasting my time, but I will nevertheless react.

Originally posted by Ned
S. Kroeze, Both houses of the U.S. Congress just voted to support Israel and to condemn Arafat. It looks like the whole of the United States, save for a few posters here on Apolyton, disagree with the view that supporting Israel is racist.

This only confirms my ideas. The Western world despises the Muslim world. Israel is a European colony created by Zionists (=secular Jews), Britain and the U.S. So it is perfectly logical that a European colony is supported by Western Christianity.

By the way, the average American knows next to nothing about the rest of the world. They were completely taken by surprise when on the 11th of September they discovered they are generally not loved in the rest of the world.

Israel never sought to impose Zionist rule on Palestinians. It has been under attack virtually since 1920 with interludes of peace.

The state of Israel didn't exist in 1920. How can one attack a country that doesn't exist?
Yet on the other hand, one has to admit that the Zionists succeeded in their goals: they have created a European colony in Palestine, expelled the Arab savages and neutralized the true Jews. They did not, however, succeed in creating a "Palestine as Jewish as England is English"(Weizmann), but that was only an empty slogan for propagandist ends.

Do you think the Arabs have prospered as a result of Zionist immigration?
I know this is completely irrelevant: ALL Arabs are terrorist savages, isn't it?

From your statement, I can only guess that you would view the colonization of the New Worlds as a racist war against the Native Americans by the Europeans! My God, Kroeze, you have a real hatred of Europeans. This view distorts everything you say.
Ned

I know you consistently refuse to answer any honest question, but I will nevertheless try to get an answer:
Do you think the Native Americans prospered as a result of the European colonization?

By the way, I now understand why you will always defend Israel.
Somewhere in your heart you know that both Europeans and Americans are responsible for the destruction and extermination of the Native Americans.
But you are not able to look the truth straight in the eye and to admit the inhumanity of the Western civilization. The civilization that is both responsible for Auschwitz and the destruction of the Indians.

'God has given this world to the Christians, to dominate and extirpate all other human beings'

tu regere imperio populos, Romane, memento -
haec tibi erunt artes - pacique inponere morem,
parcere subiectis et debellare superbos

[Natan]

The Zionists "neutralized the true Jews?" What exactly are "true Jews" and who made you the arbiter of Jewish identity? While the way the Labor Zionists treated the Sephardim was shameful, the Sephardim are themselves Zionists. Half of Israel's population is religious or of Sephardi origin. If they were anti-Zionist, there would be no country. So I think your view of Israel as a European-Secular (would you prefer Antarctican theocracy?) colony set as a dagger in the heart of the Arab world by the Jewish leaders and Crusaders needs revision.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by S. Kroeze
I really begin to suspect that I am wasting my time, but I will nevertheless react.

You may indeed be wasting your time and ours. Is your point that you hate your own culture? So what, it's all part of being a leftist European. If you keep an open mind, perhaps travel a bit you will probably grow out of your delusion that Western Civilization is the boil from which all evil flows.

Originally posted by S. Kroeze
This only confirms my ideas. The Western world despises the Muslim world. Israel is a European colony created by Zionists (=secular Jews), Britain and the U.S. So it is perfectly logical that a European colony is supported by Western Christianity.

By the way, the average American knows next to nothing about the rest of the world. They were completely taken by surprise when on the 11th of September they discovered they are generally not loved in the rest of the world.

Thanks for pointing that out. I'm sure Ned, Ethelred and Natan were all as enlightened as I was by your expert knowledge of how much Americans know or don't know. I mean, you live in the Netherlands where information about the U.S. is much easier to find than here in the U.S. itself.

Originally posted by S. Kroeze
I know you consistently refuse to answer any honest question, but I will nevertheless try to get an answer:
Do you think the Native Americans prospered as a result of the European colonization?

This is a complex question to say the least, and can be interpreted in different ways. The answer is it depends on which people you are talking about. Even early on Native Americans benefited from iron tools etc. to the extent that access to the European trading posts was something that sometimes caused wars. Most of the casualties in British North America were inadvertent. Through disease and changes of native ways in reaction to the Europeans which caused dislocation of populations and warfare amongst the Indians, and a dependency on a particular way of life (ie hunting for furs) which was driven by a temporary market force, which petered out over time.

This caused the collapse of many indigenous groups, but it's not as if everyone was rounded up and killed. I am one of several Apolyton posters who is part American Indian, and there are at least tens of millions of us throughout the U.S. The culture of our Indian forefathers is gone for the most part, but the blood lives on. For my part I have to say that I'm glad the Europeans came here and allowed (however inadvertently) the U.S. to be formed. I am prosperous and happy, and proud of my many heritages.

Were the original people in North America benefitted by European contact? Some were, some were certainly not, but in the long run I think that these peoples definitely benefitted by having access to technology, and all of the improvements to life that it has brought the Europeans themselves. Their own cultures could not stand up to the competition of advanced methods, and were abandoned as much as destroyed. This is a loss for the anthropologist, but a net gain for people who are alive today because of everything European and American society could bring.

Originally posted by S. Kroeze
By the way, I now understand why you will always defend Israel.
Somewhere in your heart you know that both Europeans and Americans are responsible for the destruction and extermination of the Native Americans.
But you are not able to look the truth straight in the eye and to admit the inhumanity of the Western civilization. The civilization that is both responsible for Auschwitz and the destruction of the Indians.

'God has given this world to the Christians, to dominate and extirpate all other human beings'

Oh boo hoo, do you want us all to fall on our swords because some people who lived before we were born did some bad things, and belonged to the vast stretch of humanity which calls Western Civilization it's own? Someday when you tire of hating yourself, your family, your neighbors, your countrymen and the perhaps 20% (or more) of humanity which is included in the Western World you will find that you have plenty to feel guilty about personally, and that your need to project your own sins on huge swaths of humanity was merely a ploy to keep you from dealing with your own difficult feelings. Good luck with that.

[Dr Strangelove]

I'd like to say a few words about the claim that the French seperated Vietnam into a catholic and a buddhist part. South Vietnam was only 10% catholic. The fact that the government was generally overwhelmingly catholic just demonstrates the corruption of the South Vietnamese government.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Natan
Why would it matter whether Chris is Jewish or not?

You are the one that said some of my opponents weren't Jewish in a manner that implied that I wasn't aware of it. I was pointing out that YET AGAIN I hadn't said what someone just claimed I was saying. You in this instance.

Implying that your opponents are against you because you're not Jewish is a bit silly when the people insulting you aren't either.

Which is something I never even remotely implied. The fact that I was aware they are not all Jewish should make that clear to you.

Now do you understand why I mentioned Chris? After all he was the one makeing the insults. Or did you make some that I have forgotten?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
I'd like to say a few words about the claim that the French seperated Vietnam into a catholic and a buddhist part. South Vietnam was only 10% catholic. The fact that the government was generally overwhelmingly catholic just demonstrates the corruption of the South Vietnamese government.

And, isn't it curious that the first Catholic U.S. president had the Catholic president of South Vietnam assassinated because he was discriminating against the Buddists?

Ned

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by S. Kroeze
This only confirms my ideas. The Western world despises the Muslim world. Israel is a European colony created by Zionists (=secular Jews), Britain and the U.S. So it is perfectly logical that a European colony is supported by Western Christianity.

The US Congress is much more interested in getting the Jewish vote and the Religous Right vote. Both have a interest in a Jewish state. Now I do think the US considers the Arab world to be dangerous at the moment. Without the terrorists that wouldn't be the case.

By the way, the average American knows next to nothing about the rest of the world. They were completely taken by surprise when on the 11th of September they discovered they are generally not loved in the rest of the world.

You are kidding yourself. The average American is pretty ignorant about the rest of the world but they were not harboring the illusion that they are well loved by everyone. However I might point out that we are in fact not hated by most of the world.

As for surprise, did you know such an attack was coming? We had allready had one attack on the World Trade Center. Shock is more the right description than surprise.

The state of Israel didn't exist in 1920. How can one attack a country that doesn't exist?

I noticed that too. For some reason others haven't quite got the idea that a non-existant country is really hard to attack.

Yet on the other hand, one has to admit that the Zionists succeeded in their goals: they have created a European colony in Palestine, expelled the Arab savages and neutralized the true Jews. They did not, however, succeed in creating a "Palestine as Jewish as England is English"(Weizmann), but that was only an empty slogan for propagandist ends.

True Jews? Religion is not the only aspect of being Jewish.

Do you think the Arabs have prospered as a result of Zionist immigration?
I know this is completely irrelevant: ALL Arabs are terrorist savages, isn't it?

Thats a bit over the top.

I know you consistently refuse to answer any honest question, but I will nevertheless try to get an answer:
Do you think the Native Americans prospered as a result of the European colonization?

Prospered? Some of them. Many died but the main cause of that is disease not some sort of intentional genocide. The fact is even before the first successful English Colony was planted in what is now the US the Spaniards had spread small pox to much of the Americas. The entire Missippi, Missouri, Ohio River basin was devastated by small pox in just a year or two after one Spanish expedition crossed the Gulf coast. The whole civilization was destroyed. The death rate is estimated to have been close to 90%. It was so bad no one even knew it ever existed untill the late 1900's.

But you are not able to look the truth straight in the eye and to admit the inhumanity of the Western civilization. The civilization that is both responsible for Auschwitz and the destruction of the Indians.

Its not one civilization. The US is not responsible for Aushwitz and I hardly think Israel is responsible for either of those. The people of the US are fully aware of what happened to the Indians. Well most of us anyway. I didn't do that. Neither did my ancestors. Most Americans ancestors came after that.

[Ned]

S. Kroeze, If you confine the answer to North America, the answer clearly is no, the Natives Americans did not prosper. Europeans came here primarily to seek religious freedom or to flee from poverty or oppression in Europe. They did not come here with the expressed purpose of destroying the native culture. It happened because the cultures were incompatible and could not co-exist.

In its early days, America provided refuge and hope for the impoverished and oppressed of Europe. It today provides that same hope, but to the whole world. People in need, or the those who seek greater opportunity, emigrate here. Countries under attack seek our alliance.

We support Israel because it, like the United States, is a place of refuge for one of the oppressed peoples of the world, the Jews. We support Israel more for this reason than any other. They are very much like us in their foundation and purpose.

But I agree, the Muslim world has largely grown to hate us, primarily due to our support of Israel. President Bush has made clear to the Saudi Crown Prince that the hate preaching of their religious leaders must stop. I believe we have the Crown Prince's agreement on that.

Hopefully, the upcoming peace conference will bear fruit. But, Kroeze, let's be honest. If the suicide bombings begin again, peace may not be possible. Israel will not compromise on its own security. Nor should the U.S. or Europe force it to so compromise.

Hopefully I have answered all your questions.

I would also, respectfully, ask you to reassess your own views on Western Civilization. It is one of the oldest and deepest cultures in the world. Today due to the internet and other means of communication, it is spreading. One day, the whole world will have one culture, I believe, and it will be ours.

This is why Osama bin Laden has declared war on Western Civilization. Fundamentalist Islam cannot co-exist with Western Civilization. It is clash of fundamentally incompatible cultures once again. One has to change or vanish.

The war began with Osama striking the first blows. We are now fighting back.

There were recent demonstrations on college campuses here against our war in Afghanistan. Chants of, "We don't support your racist war." were sung by the demonstrators. I, and many Americans, were shocked and outraged by what we heard. But now I know that the bizzare hatred of anything U.S. is coming from the radical left and its preaching of hatred of Western Civilization.

Isn't this so?

Ned

[Ned]

Guys, On the "since 1920" bit, I meant, that the violence against the Jews began then and continued, with interludes, from that time forward. The fact that the Jews formed the state of Israel only in 1948 doesn't change this. They were under attack for a long time before they declared a state. Ned

[Panag]

hi ,


violence to jews ; it has always been there , from the start .

as for the rest , people , wake up , go there , go to live for a month or so there , you shall see , ...........

oh yeah , for students , you can earn credit's if you go there , ......

as for the rest ; have a nice day

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Ned
In its early days, America provided refuge and hope for the impoverished and oppressed of Europe.

I agree

It today provides that same hope, but to the whole world. People in need, or the those who seek greater opportunity, emigrate here.

It may provide the hope, but the reality is a different thing these days.

We support Israel because it, like the United States, is a place of refuge for one of the oppressed peoples of the world, the Jews. We support Israel more for this reason than any other. They are very much like us in their foundation and purpose.

We support Isreal because of its strategic importance in the Middle East. The lack of any coherent policy towards the arabs has left us with no alternative but to continue to support the Israelis. Despite some common purpose, the Israeli's are not an ally of America. On many occasions they have shown a willingness to use covert activities against America.

This is why Osama bin Laden has declared war on Western Civilization. Fundamentalist Islam cannot co-exist with Western Civilization. It is clash of fundamentally incompatible cultures once again. One has to change or vanish.

Why is that? I think this is a good example of the generally poor understanding of other cultures that predominates american foreign policy. Osama Bin Laden and the other scum are not representative of Islam.

[Kropotkin]

If I might say something about that last part. Although I agree with you in general Ned did say fundamentalist Islam. Fundamentalists in general can hardly ever co-exist with pretty much anything.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Kropotkin
If I might say something about that last part. Although I agree with you in general Ned did say fundamentalist Islam. Fundamentalists in general can hardly ever co-exist with pretty much anything.

I agree that there is a perception that so called fundamentalists often initiate confrontations because of the intolerance of their views. I would like to point out, though, that the term "religious fundamentalist", especially when applied to moslems, has almost become a catch-phrase for "unwavering psychos" in our society. Bin Laden is not a religious fundementalist, he is an example of a delusionary psychotic opportunist who mis-uses the tenets of faith for his own evil.