Europe and "Those People"

[Velociryx]

Dude...in the original post I mentioned it, I didn't state it as fact....my exact phrasing was:

"IIRC, didn't his death by the hand of Yigal Amir have something to do with the Pals?"

C'mon....it's 2002...this happened in '95-'96, and I'm sorry to say I don't have the facts and figures right at my fingertips anymore. It's not exactly a hot, late-breaking item.

But yes, as I remember it, at the time there was some talk of Amir having had ties to or being sympathetic to the Pal cause. I dunno if there are even any active news links out there, but I will go see.

-=Vel=-

[Kropotkin]

Nah don't you worry/get upset, the "facts" part wasn't at all aimed at you.

I just hadn't heard that theory before (or forgot about, as you said it was years ago).

[Velociryx]

gotcha bud... And my apologies if I sounded snappish just then....lack of sleep and workin' on a Saturday...but now you DO have me curious. I think later on I'll head to the archives and see if I can dig anything up....

-=Vel=-

[Kropotkin]

Just watch out, curiousity killed the cat* and the archive is a datk and dangerous place indeed.




* mastrubation also killed the cat, as has been showed in a pic-thread not that long time ago...

[Velociryx]

OUCH! Well, that didn't take too long...apparently there's still quite the gold mine of articles out there about Amir....I stand corrected. Apparently he had ties to a Jewish-Extremist group....

Highlights below:

"The man who confessed to killing Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin appeared in court for the first time Monday. Jewish law student Yigal Amir told the judge the assassination was meant to halt the Mideast peace process.

Surrounded by guards and a barrage of journalists, Amir was led into Tel Aviv's main court in the same clothes and black skullcap he wore when he fired the fatal shots Saturday. Amir told Magistrate Dan Arbel that Rabin wanted to "give our country to the Arabs." "We need to be cold-hearted," he said.

MORE

"Investigators are trying to determine whether Yigal Amir killed Rabin on behalf of a Jewish extremist group. Several dozen militants have been questioned. Police are also looking for the head of the Eyal group -- an offshoot of the outlawed anti-Arab Kach movement.

Asked where he got his ideas, Yigal Amir told the magistrate that he drew on the Halacha, which is the Jewish legal code. "According to the Halacha, you can kill the enemy," Amir said. "My whole life, I learned Halacha. When you kill in war, it is an act that is allowed."

MORE

"He also complained that "a Palestinian state is starting to be established" because of Rabin's policies. Amir said that "50 percent were Arabs" at the peace rally where Rabin spoke minutes before he was shot. "What do you want, for them to bury us in our own state? Rabin wants to give our country to the Arabs."

-=Vel=-
Good call, Kropotkin, and thanks for keepin' me honest. I doubt I'd have checked, and would have relied on my (faulty) memory!

[Velociryx]

Assorted Links:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/9302/Rabin/Amir_Hands.htm

(I have no idea what this says, but wanted to include it for those who might)

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH01p30

(sentencing)

http://europe.cnn.com/WORLD/9511/rabin/amir/11-06/

(general cnn article)

-=Vel=-

[Kropotkin]

Yep that sounds pretty much like what I remembered of it all.

At the same time it wouldn't be strange at all if you (and others) at some time stumbled up on a text that links this murdered with palestinian groups. As we a couple of days ago, more or less (in)sane extremists sometimes have strange bed-fellows. In that debate the connections between neo-nazis and arabs where debated. I myself read an article a year or so back where a group of ultra-orthodox jews took part in a palestinian convention (I think it was in NY) because they and the pals chared the view that Israel was a state that shouldn't be but from different viewpoints. The fundies in question meant that the jews only should go back to the holy land why god said so and this secular state was more or less an insult.

At the same time there's of cource other fundies that think god did make a sign that the jews should get back to the holy land like rabbi A I Kook that made a argument that God sometimes acts trough secular people. It's kind of a verion of 'God moves in mysterious ways'.

[Velociryx]

Strange but true, Kro...

Back to the topic at hand, I found this while cruising the archive.....http://www.io.com/~freeman/updates/593.htm

Feb 26, 2002 - Points regarding the Saudi Peace Initiative - Most recent offer on the table/under discussion:

1) There has been no official substantiation from the Saudis that such an "offer" has been made.

2) There is no reason to believe that the offer is genuine, in light of the 54 years of Saudi opposition to the very existence of the State of Israel, and the presence of any Jews in the Middle East.

3) Further doubt is cast on Saudi sincerity by the anti-Israel, anti-Jewish, sentiments publicly expressed to crowds of millions in Mecca this week.

4) There is no evidence to believe that the "Arab World" is willing to agree to the rumoured Saudi offer, and considerable evidence to the contrary.

5) There is no evidence to believe that the "Palestinian" Arabs are willing to agree to the rumoured Saudi offer, and considerable evidence to the contrary. "Palestinian" Arab spokesmen have already rejected the offer.

6) Saudi Arabia has no right to speak for the "Arab World", "Palestinian" Arabs, or any country other than Saudi Arabia.

7) Barak made a similar offer to Arafat 17 months ago, without any conditions. Arafat patently rejected the offer, and began the current all-out war (described by the media as 17 months of violence) against Israel.

Why would he accept it today?

8) History, and especially recent history, has shown us the worth of an Arab "promise". 83 % of the Jewish Homeland was given to the "Palestinian" Arabs, to establish the "Palestinian State of TransJordan" (now Jordan) in the first part of the 20th century. That huge territorial concession did not quell the Arab desire to make all of the Middle East "Judenfrei". In the past 9 years of the grossly-misnamed "peace process", the "Palestinian" Arabs have been given control over 97 % of the "disputed" (not "occupied") territories. That huge territorial and political concession has not changed the Arab goal of annihilating Israel and the Jewish populace, nor has it reduced the political and military attacks against Israel. In fact, it has exponentially increased Arab violence. There is absolutely no reason to believe that further concessions will have any different effect.

9) The magical "pre-1967 boundaries" were nothing but the cease fire lines, following the 1948 war, in which seven Arab armies invaded the newly-established State of Israel, with the declared intent of annihilation. There was no "Palestinian" state on the western side of the Jordan, and there was no "Palestinian" people claiming title to the land. Rather, Jordan, Syria, and Egypt were squabbling amongst each other as to how to divide Israel up, when they had driven the Jews into the sea.

10) The "pre-1967 boundaries" would leave Judaism's holiest cities (Jerusalem, Hebron) in the hands of those who would deny Jewish access. It would also leave Christian holy sites under the administration of those who have historically persecuted non-Muslims, and denied them freedom of worship. And it would leave Jewish "settlements", which have been rebuilt since 1967, subject to the same destruction and confiscation by the Arabs as occurred in 1948.

11) The "pre-1967 boundaries" would leave Israel extremely vulnerable to continued Arab attack. For example, from 1948 to 1967, the Syrians used the highly-fortified Golan Heights solely to stage continued mortar attacks against the Israeli communities in the Galilee below; the Jordanians used the high-ground in the West Bank to attack Israel with mortar fire, and to stage terrorist infiltrations; the Egyptians staged daily terrorist raids from Gaza.

12) In fact, since Arafat and the "Palestinian Authority" have been given control over most of the West Bank and Gaza, the pre-1967 sort of attacks have resumed — ten fold. This, despite Arafat agreeing to "reign in terror and anti-Semitic incitement" as a pre-condition of being given political control of these territories.

13) A number of years ago, Sadat of Egypt approached Israel with a professed desire for a permanent peace. Israel "returned" the Sinai Peninsula (which is of immense strategic and economic value) to Egypt, in return for the promise of peace, and normalization of relations with Egypt. Yet, Egypt has violated the conditions of that treaty, virtually since its inception. For example, Egypt has withdrawn its ambassador; the official Egyptian press continually published the most vile anti-Semitic, anti-Israel, inciteful, hateful, propaganda; Egypt has rebuilt and re-armed a huge army (which has only one possible purpose).

14) Why should we expect any different from an unofficial, unauthorized "peace offer" from Saudi Arabia? For that matter, why should we expect anything but non-compliance and further warfare, from a "peace agreement" with an Arab/Muslim entity? They have never adhered to any agreements in the past, but suddenly we should risk our very existence on the unlikely possibility that the leopards have changed their spots?

15) The Koran describes, and applauds, an incident where Mohammed makes a false peace treaty with his sworn enemy, and then, while they are lulled into a false sense of security and lay down their arms, regroups, re-arms, and attacks. Arafat and other "Palestinian" spokesmen have frequently described their agreements with Israel as such "temporary measures". In fact, it is the Arabic term describing the aforementioned incident which is used in lieu of the word for "treaty", when there are discussions of "agreements" with Israel.

A Trojan horse, by any other name, is still a Trojan horse.

-=Vel=-

[Kropotkin]

Originally posted by Velociryx
A Trojan horse, by any other name, is still a Trojan horse.

That parts remind me of an old deGaulle quote I kind of like (about british membership in then EC now EU ) "England is only a trojan horse for the americans!"

[Heresson]

We have done more than you to get peace in the region.

I believe Sharon thinks he does everything to get peace in the region too...

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison


So what are you then?



Considerably different. The Poles weren't oppressing the Germans

You know PH, the Israelies are probably more concerned that you guys will treat them more like the Czechs rather than the poles. Is anything for peace still the order of the day?

[Provost Harrison]

We won't treat them like 'anything', they know how the situation stands.

[bondetamp]

I didn't know that Le Pen was anti semite, I always asumed he was more of an "ultra nationalist" (quite racist, but not against Jews in particular). In Norway, the most nationalistic, right wing groups are also, mostly, the most pro Israel.

(In fact I saw a "debate" between two far right politicians on a Christian TV channel earlier today where they were both in agreement that 1. The foreigners would have to be kicked out, and 2. Israel could do no wrong. )

Is this not the case in most of Europe?

[Ecthy]

Nopey, far-right leanings tend to be Nazi-ish, and not only in Germany.

[Tau Ceti]

Originally posted by bondetamp
(In fact I saw a "debate" between two far right politicians on a Christian TV channel earlier today where they were both in agreement that 1. The foreigners would have to be kicked out, and 2. Israel could do no wrong. )

I did not know we had any Christian TV channels. Which channel was it, and which politicians?