Europe and "Those People"

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by notyoueither
If you call them soldiers, you are legitimizing their tactics.

How so? The word soldier in and of itself carries no noble meaning.

[notyoueither]

Doesn't it?

[Velociryx]

PH: I agree with the notion that violence begets violence, however, the Israelis were the last ones to offer up the Olive Branch, only to have it shoved down their throats (along with some more explosives at a number of civilian targets). Given this, I think it's up to the Pals to determine when THEY are ready to talk peace. If they continue their attacks, then they should expect the same. It is unreasonable to expect the Israelis to come to the table yet again with another offer at this time, given the response to their last few.

Dino: I'll not deny that a regular army, when it moves, when it fights does not kill civilians. Clearly they do. The difference is that the army (and the soldiers in it) do not routinely and exclusively cull out civilian targets to shoot at. Generally, they shoot at the guys who are shooting back. This is not the case with terrorists.

-=Vel=-

[Ned]

Originally posted by Velociryx
again....just pointing out that it's a behavior learned quite clearly from our forefathers in Europe.

You mentioned Native Americans, and yes, they were treated badly by the United States....but were they treated any worse by us than say....Spain? (the nation that toppled ancient American Empires and depopulated entire regions).

-=Vel=-

Vel, You have always impressed me as being a relatively educated fellow. I am surprised by the above statement. Have you ever read de Tocquiville's Democracy in America?

Ned

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
The likes of George Washington et al at one point were regarded as terrorists.

They would agree with you.

"Nothing has been more destructive to the true interest of this Country, than the mode adopted for its defense." - Nathanael Greene 1781

It comes down to definition.

and your continued efforts not to apply them.

[Velociryx]

I agree with NYE here. To call the terrorist a soldier is to legitimize his tactics. This then, can be used as justification to enlist our own terrorists to go into the refugee camps and blow them to smithereens, yes? They're just soldiers, after all, so why not?

-=Vel=-

[Ned]

Can I ask a question concerning Le Pen? Is he anti-Israeli? All the anti-Semitism we now see in the U.S., except for some lunatic white supremecists groups, is coming from the left.

Ned

[Velociryx]

Ned: Thank ya! And while I have not read the particular book in question, I know that some heinous attrocities were committed by the Americans AFTER we won our independence, not limited to forced resettlement, mass murder, and even biological war. Absolutely horrible stuff, and totally unforgivable.

I was simply pointing out that we hardly invented that game, and in terms of raw numbers (the plains indians, even taken as a whole, were never nearly so numerous as the tribes in the Mexican peninsula), the Spanish could give us a few lessons.

Should it be all about the numbers? Absolutely not. Heinous crimes are heinous crimes. However, for Euros to paint us and our actions as being any worse than their own is to deny history itself.

-=Vel=-

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Velociryx
I agree with NYE here. To call the terrorist a soldier is to legitimize his tactics.

How so? I still haven't seen an arguement in that regard.

This then, can be used as justification to enlist our own terrorists to go into the refugee camps and blow them to smithereens, yes?

No, it couldn't be. As i said earlier, warfare against a civilian population is a counterproductive tactic and will hurt your long term interests.

History is full of such examples. I could even give you a short list if you want.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Velociryx
However, for Euros to paint us and our actions as being any worse than their own is to deny history itself.

In all places, some people are very good at that.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
As i said earlier, warfare against a civilian population is a counterproductive tactic and will hurt your long term interests.

It seems to be doing the Palestinians a lot of good. Most (?) Europeans are turning against Israel due to the measures the IDF has been forced to take to protect Israel. Many Americans are beginning to go down that same Euro road.

[Velociryx]

Dino: Absolutely correct. It DOES hurt your long term interests to actively make use of terrorist "soldiers." This is being borne out as we type in the Middle East. The Israelis DID offer terms of peace. The Pal response was to send in the terrorists.

Israel countered.

Blood flowed.

If we count the terrorists as soldiers, as you say, then this latest round of violence was initiated by the Pals and their "army". Thus, it should be up to them to say when it's time to sue for peace. Until then, they are reaping what they have sown.

-=Vel=-

[Ned]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Neo-nazis are liberal?

That's what is so confounding. The Democratic Party in the U.S. has been the home of the Jews and the greatest supporter of Israel. And yet, virtually all the radical anti-Semitic hatred, and there is a lot of it, that I see here is coming exclusively from liberals.

That is why I am asking about Le Pen. He has been characterized as being from the far right. Is he pro- or anti-Israel?

Ned

[gopher]

The thing is, with state-sponsored terrorism, these terrorists are being used as a tool for foreign policy by some nations (Pals, Iran, Iraq, Syria), and thus are soldiers in the international sence. And I have no problem with this. Let them be called soldiers. Therefore, the suicide bombers attacks are an act of war by the sponsering states on the nation of Israel, and as thus warrent military action.

In the future, I see terrorists being a more and more used tool by some countries. But, what the countries that use them don't get, is that although they decided to askew conventional military warfare for this new tactic, other (more powerful) countries still fight with tanks, planes, and troops.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by notyoueither
It seems to be doing the Palestinians a lot of good.

Thier dream of a sovereign state gets pushed further out with each suicide attack, regardless of international pressure, and they are extremely unlikely to get much more than what was offered by Barak at Camp David II in any political settlement, even the Saudi Proposal is only a few percentage points off of that offer. I fail to see how thier use of terrorism has substantially advanced thier cause.