Europe and "Those People"

[Heresson]

I think it was only in case of German invasion.
Anyway, theoretically there was no war between Poland and USSR. Soviets claimed there is Polish state no more, and Poles had orders not to fight with Soviet troops unless
Only one bigger city tried to defend itself against Soviets, Grodno, and it paid for that. Poles were aware no-one woild risk a war against USSR anyway.
I'll ask someone or will check it but I'm almost sure it is like I wrote.

[Saint Marcus]

2/10

Every (european) criticism of Israel is called "anti-semitism" nowadays. Well, so be it. Since you think we're all anti-semites anyway, this won't shock nor surprise you.


(note: sarcastic post, though I'm sure some people will be offended)

[Kropotkin]

St marcus: you're clearly an anti-semite so who cares what you think!

[Saint Marcus]

hehe


about Le Pen. He is anti-semetic, but pro Israel. Why? Well, he doesn't particulary like the Jews (since the guy is as close to neo-nazi as one can get), but he knows that Israel isn't a threath to France. However, he does think the Arabs (including the pals) are a threath to France.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
hehe


about Le Pen. He is anti-semetic, but pro Israel. Why? Well, he doesn't particulary like the Jews (since the guy is as close to neo-nazi as one can get), but he knows that Israel isn't a threath to France. However, he does think the Arabs (including the pals) are a threath to France.

I think this illustrates that the original Zionist thinking was right. The Jews would get no respect and would continue to be persecuted until they had a state of their own. The right's respect for Israel, I predict, will soon translate in to less anti-semitism.

Ned

[Imran Siddiqui]

I think this illustrates that the original Zionist thinking was right. The Jews would get no respect and would continue to be persecuted until they had a state of their own.

*looks at Manhatten*

Say what?

[Saint Marcus]

Oh please. We're talking about the opinions of a far right extremist here. Main stream Europe isn't anti jew (though probably anti israel). So in fact, there's far less respect in Europe for the state of Israel nowadays, and a lot more for the Jewish community still living in Europe.

[Korpo]

It is really funny this talk about antisemitic Europeans.. especially since it's well known that there is a large muslimic minority in France, members of which are likely to be responsible for the synagogue attacks. Since these are immigrants, and their hatred arises out of the Middle-East tensions between Arab muslims and Jewish Israelis (and especially orthodox and fundamentalist hardliners on both sides), it is a pretty stretch to conclude there is a historical habit of antisemitism in Europe still today. It's simply utter crap. A bit of Zionist propraganda on the small scale, someone's own agenda.

The real question, though, remains this:
1) Why of all people have the Israelis, or at least their elected governments, not learned a lession out of WWII and the holocaust?
2) The Israelis have economic wealth, education, a liberal democracy (or at least they had) and freedom. Why do they envy the arabs in Palestine even for the land they live on, build settlements?

It is a strange irony that a democracy is an oppressor of the people of Palestine. It is very clear, why the Arabs ressort to terrorism: it is the only lever in this struggle they have left. If you corner an animal, it will go berzerk. The people of Palestine have been cornered for 50 years, living as refugees, without political stability or their own land.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Sh.t ! I've missed this Lone Start anti-eu (anti-french) troll ...


I will not sleep for a mounth ...

[axi]

It is a strange irony that a democracy is an oppressor of the people of Palestine.

Perhaps it isn't so much of a democracy....

I do not doubt the democratism of the Israeli society, but I doubt that a society that only part of the population are "citizens" is really democratic.

Following that, even the first democracy in the world, Athens of the 5th century BC, was highly undemocratic, since a very small fraction of the population were citizens. Of course those citizens enjoyed the priviledges of the highest democracy (direct democracy) but what good was it if they all belonged to a single social class and had the same interests. Their sovereignty was assured, that's why they had the priviledge of being democratic. The same goes for the capitalist democracy of our time, in which the lower social strata were only allowed into politics when they no longer posed any threat to the system.

Isn't this somewhat the situation in Israel?

[Saint Marcus]

Why of all people have the Israelis, or at least their elected governments, not learned a lession out of WWII and the holocaust?

My thoughts exactly.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Korpo
The real question, though, remains this:
1) Why of all people have the Israelis, or at least their elected governments, not learned a lession out of WWII and the holocaust?
2) The Israelis have economic wealth, education, a liberal democracy (or at least they had) and freedom. Why do they envy the arabs in Palestine even for the land they live on, build settlements?

I think the lesson the Israelis learned from World War II and the Holocaust is that they must defend themselves because they cannot rely on the "civilized" world, particularly the Europeans, to defend them when they are attacked. It is remarkable that the United States, seemingly alone, understands this and at the Europeans do not.

Ned

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Ned
I think the lesson the Israelis learned from World War II and the Holocaust is that they must defend themselves because they cannot rely on the "civilized" world, particularly the Europeans, to defend them when they are attacked.

Do you really think they are that dumb? How unkind.

[Natan]

What I love is how Europeans explain that they're not anti-Semitic because it's all the Arabs fault and use animal analogies on the Palestinians. (yes, I know that the vast majority of Europeans are neither racist nor anti-Semitic, but it does strike me as a strange defense - we're not racist, you have us confused with that race of racists, who don't count as us because despite sharing citizenship in our countries, they have dark skin and Saracen faith!)


Please, terrorism is a political strategy. People use it to help them achieve their objectives. When people truly are cornered and beaten, they submit, as the Sunnis did in Syria, the Maronites in Lebanon, and the Shi'ites in Iraq.

And I don't particularly see the relevance of the Holocaust to the matter.

[Saint Marcus]

I think the lesson the Israelis learned from World War II and the Holocaust is that they must defend themselves because they cannot rely on the "civilized" world, particularly the Europeans, to defend them when they are attacked.

Seems you didn't learn from WW2 either. The main lesson is, that oppresion is terrible. Not war itself, but the oppression resulting from it, caused the greatest suffering.