AA? What AA? After 25 years of trying, US media still fails diversity test

[TCO]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Moral Hazard: Are you a journalist? On what do you base your statements?

GP:
1. There is an ample supply of minority journalists based on the people who are training to become journalists. These people are different from college athletes who may or may not want a professional athletic career. If you pay money to get a journalism degree then it stands to reason that you want a career in journalism.

2. The supply of minority journalists is there, but at least a third of American dailies do not have a single visible minority on staff. These dailies include papers that operate in communities with a high percentage of visible minorities.

3. To be an average reporter does not require a lot of skill. We're not talking NBA skills here. The vast majority of reporting that I have seen is nothing special and could be done by anyone (the stuff that is really good does require special skill that most reporters don't have). So the skill limitation is not a factor.

If you eliminate all, but one explanation then the remaining explanation is likely true.

Showing that there are a certain number of minorities with journalism degrees does not mean that the minority applicants are equal. They may still differ in ability. I made this point earlier. Papers will pick the best applicant they can find. Not just one who has been to school.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by GP
Tingkai,

See my post at 29 after the hour. I really can't say much more here. I've stated my points clearly and in several cases you have strained to even understand what I am driving at. I'll have to let you steep and think about things.

Funny, I was about to write the same thing about you.

We're going around in circles here.

I'll close off my comments to this thread by saying that anyone in the business would get a good laugh about your comment that "Papers will pick the best applicant they can find." If only that were true.

[TCO]

Businesses have an economic incentive to hire workers who will make money for them. They don't always manage it. Just like you don't always pick the best car...but you have incentives to do so...

NBA teams don't always pick the best player in the draft but they try to...

[Wraith]

--"As well, it puts to rest the idea that the playing field is level in the United States, that whites are being deprived of jobs, or that the US no longer needs AA."

This story does no such thing. The article you link to admits that there is already a shortage of minority candidates for print journalist positions. No matter how much AA you're willing to spout, if there's no candidates for the jobs, there's no candidates for the jobs. This is hardly racism.

--"Fact: More than 25 per cent of journalism students are visible minorities."

And your own damn article says they're mostly chosing broadcasting careers rather than print. Again, not racism.

But not enough minorities are choosing print journalism, and instead are choosing broadcasting or public relations.

Why people are so irritated with you is that you are simply refusing to admit there might just possibly be perhaps some other factor than racism involved here.

Wraith
Math illiteracy affects 8 out of every 5 people.

[Dauphin]

Surely you should pick the best person for the job?

If the best people are white, and the reason being that other groups are not given a good start in life, e.g they lack the needed skills because of a poor education, why take it out on employers, do something to correct the education system.

If you employ a quota of a minority group, will it be self-sustaining (that is if you later remove the quota-ring system will the proportion remain ~constant). I don't think so, because the cause of the need for quota-ring is not being addressed. Unless you subscribe to the theory that like chooses like for a job.

[Shi Huangdi]

The main place where AA is a big factor is education, where minorites have a decided advantage in college admissions.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Wraith
--"As well, it puts to rest the idea that the playing field is level in the United States, that whites are being deprived of jobs, or that the US no longer needs AA."

This story does no such thing. The article you link to admits that there is already a shortage of minority candidates for print journalist positions. No matter how much AA you're willing to spout, if there's no candidates for the jobs, there's no candidates for the jobs. This is hardly racism.

--"Fact: More than 25 per cent of journalism students are visible minorities."

And your own damn article says they're mostly chosing broadcasting careers rather than print. Again, not racism.
Why people are so irritated with you is that you are simply refusing to admit there might just possibly be perhaps some other factor than racism involved here.

Wraith
Math illiteracy affects 8 out of every 5 people.

Yup, do the math. About 88,000 people graduate from journalism school each year. Of these, about 25 per cent are visible minorities. So about 22.000 visible minorities graduate from journalism schools. Let's assume that 75 per cent want to go into broadcast, that leaves 5,500 visible minorities who want to pursue a career in print journalism. Let's say that only the top 10 per cent have the skills to make it in the big times. That means that 550 of them are more than qualifed. There are about 1,500 daily newspapers in the US. So within a 10 year period there are 5,500 elite visible minority journalists and about 50,000 average visible minority journalists.

So why is it that one-third (about 500) of all American daily newspapers do not employ a single visible minority editorial worker?

Do the math.

[chequita guevara]

I think you're on the right side, but consider that most American dailies are from cities that aren't that big, that have very small minority communities, and may not be very attractive to minority candidates. Most of the major cities only have one or two dailies.

The fact that there is lots of smoke, doesn't necessarily mean there is a fire. It does, however, warrent a close look.

[Wraith]

--"Let's assume that 75 per cent want to go into broadcast"

You forgot the PR part as well. Big companies (and governments) use a lot of PR people.
It would also be interesting to see the relative pay scales of the three fields.

--"Let's say that only the top 10 per cent have the skills to make it in the big times."

If they've got the skills to make it in the big time, they sure aren't going to be applying to the majority of those daily newspapers, they're going to be gunning for places like the New York Times. Think about where most of those papers are. A lot of rural areas are predominately white, if not almost entirely white. So how many of those all-white daily papers are actually at racial parity with their readership? Your article doesn't even consider the question, and without that answer any attempt to delcare racism is invalid.

Wraith
"The difference between literature and journalism is that journalism is unreadable and literature is not read."
-- Oscar Wilde

[TCO]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I think you're on the right side, but consider that most American dailies are from cities that aren't that big, that have very small minority communities, and may not be very attractive to minority candidates. Most of the major cities only have one or two dailies.

The fact that there is lots of smoke, doesn't necessarily mean there is a fire. It does, however, warrent a close look.

Good words from the commie! Could you take this left-wing Giancarlo under your wing and tutor him?

[TCO]

Is Tingkai learning from any of this?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by GP
Good words from the commie! Could you take this left-wing Giancarlo under your wing and tutor him?

Come now, he is no where near as bad as Gian. Nine times out of ten, I think he's got an excellent and well-argued point. This is just one of those one times out of ten. Furthermore, despite that fact that he's reading more into this tha may be there, what he has shown should give us cause for concern.

In epidimiologial terms, there's definately a sickness. What needs to be done is investigation into the cause.

[TCO]

Well...I just think he's not that smart. You're better. In terms of issues, I probably align closer to him than you...

And Gian has gotten better...

[Tingkai]

Well golly. Gomer Pyle has a low opinion of my intelligence. You can imagine the amount of disquiet that cause me given the amount of respect that I have for Gomer (i.e. none).

And he seems to have developed a fondness for his latest label relating to Giancarlo. Let's see, IIRC Giancarlo is a Spanish homosexual who hates homosexuals while I'm a Canadian hetrosexual who does not hate homosexuals. Giancarlo gained infamy for sending photos of himself to other posters, something I have never done. Yup, I can see the similarities.

Che mentions a new justification for all-white news teams and Wraith grasps at it -- newspapers with all-white news teams serve all-white communities. The problem is: the facts shoots holes into this latest theory just like the other excuses.

The Athens Banner-Herald, GA, circulation 33,000 (that's down your way Gomer) has an all-white news team even though more than a quarter of the population are visible minorities.

Then there is the Chico Enterprise-Record, CA with an all-white news team serving a community with 22.5 per cent being visible minorities.

The Daily Progress, Charlottesville, VA (20.2%), The Times-News, Burlington, NC (27.6%), The Tribune, Fort Pierce, FL (25.1%), The News-Argus, Goldsboro, NC (39.7 %). All of these papers have circulations of more than 20,000. All have white only news teams. All serve communities with large sectios of visible minorities.

Che's theory can explain some situations. The Bangor, Maine newspaper serves a community with 3.4 per cent visible minorities. In cases like this he is probably right.

But how about those communities where the visible minorities are actually a majority of the population and yet the newspapers in these places employ no visible minorities.

The Press Register, Clarksdale, MS (72% of the community is not white), The Signal, Santa Clarita, CA (68.9%), or the The Vicksburg Post, MS (60%).

Why is it that these newspapers have an all-white newsteam even though the papers serve communities where non-whites are the majority?


Every time someone tries to deny racism by throwing up a wild theory, the facts shoot down the theory.

Eliminate these excuses and you're left with the one explanation: Racism is alive and well within the newspaper industry. Are all newspapers racist. No. But the evidence indicates racism is affecting hiring decisions at a large number of newspapers.

[Wraith]

Some wild theory my fat arse.

I've lived in several midwest towns that both were predominately white and had daily newspapers. Your handful of counter-examples is completely irrelevant to the argument I was making. What percentage of those all-white papers reflect their readership? 5%? 95%? Somewhere inbetween? The answer to this has a great deal to do with the credibility of your blanket statement of industry-wide racism.
Secondly, your counter-examples still do nothing to prove racism. You are still refusing to accept the simple fact that there might be some other factor involved. Until you eliminate those other factors (the prime would be other similar jobs in the same area) your statement is nothing but rhetoric.
Are some of these places racist? Probably some of them. Ignorance and stupidty are not uncommon. Yet this is still a far cry from your blanket condemnation of the entire industry.

I wish more people remembered the story of the boy who cried wolf...

Wraith
"The are times when one would like to hang the whole human race and finish the farce."
-- Twain