Which Civilization has been the biggest bunch of bastards throughout history?

[MrBaggins]

Yes, maybe? Maybe what?

Muslim scholar and statesman, Ali Dashti gives the following list of women in Mohammed's life.


Khadija
Sawda
Ayesha
Omm Salama
Hafsa
*snip*

where are your sources.

Mo said that you can only have 4 wives AT A TIME

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Yes ! In our modern states, you can marry several time, no ?

[MrBaggins]

In some places... yes, but what the hell does that have to do with anything?

23 is an incredible number of marriages, which demonstrates that Mo treated women something akin to pets.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

It is not a proof ... You have to refer to the moral values of the time and the reason of these marriages.

The guy marry some orphans. Not for sexual lust but maybe for charity. Orphan girls and widows have clear right in the Q'ran.

He could have strategical mariage for alliance between tribes.

Last kind of mariage are still in use in some country (not necessary muslim ...).

So for his time Muhammad was close to a women right defendor !

[MrBaggins]

BS

Giving one example

Mohammed's adopted son Zayed was married to Zainab, daughter of Jahsh. But one day the prophet "beheld in a loose undress, the beauty of Zainab, and burst forth into an ejaculation of devotion and desire. The servile, or greatful, freeman (Zayed) understood the hint and yielded without hesitation to the love of the benefactor."

Why don't you actually produce some evidence to back up your spurious claims.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Hum ? You're reference ?

[MrBaggins]

Directly from the Koran

The good sense of Mahomet ^158 despised the pomp of royalty:
the apostle of God submitted to the menial offices of the family:
he kindled the fire, swept the floor, milked the ewes, and mended
with his own hands his shoes and his woollen garment. Disdaining
the penance and merit of a hermit, he observed, without effort or
vanity, the abstemious diet of an Arab and a soldier. On solemn
occasions he feasted his companions with rustic and hospitable
plenty; but in his domestic life, many weeks would elapse without
a tire being kindled on the hearth of the prophet. The
interdiction of wine was confirmed by his example; his hunger was
appeased with a sparing allowance of barley-bread: he delighted
in the taste of milk and honey; but his ordinary food consisted
of dates and water. Perfumes and women were the two sensual
enjoyments which his nature required, and his religion did not
forbid; and Mahomet affirmed, that the fervor of his devotion was
increased by these innocent pleasures. The heat of the climate
inflames the blood of the Arabs; and their libidinous complexion
has been noticed by the writers of antiquity. ^159 Their
incontinence was regulated by the civil and religious laws of the
Koran: their incestuous alliances were blamed; the boundless
license of polygamy was reduced to four legitimate wives or
concubines; their rights both of bed and of dowry were equitably
determined; the freedom of divorce was discouraged, adultery was
condemned as a capital offence; and fornication, in either sex,
was punished with a hundred stripes. ^160 Such were the calm and
rational precepts of the legislator: but in his private conduct,
Mahomet indulged the appetites of a man, and abused the claims of
a prophet. A special revelation dispensed him from the laws
which he had imposed on his nation: the female sex, without
reserve, was abandoned to his desires; and this singular
prerogative excited the envy, rather than the scandal, the
veneration, rather than the envy, of the devout Mussulmans. If
we remember the seven hundred wives and three hundred concubines
of the wise Solomon, we shall applaud the modesty of the Arabian,
who espoused no more than seventeen or fifteen wives; eleven are
enumerated who occupied at Medina their separate apartments round
the house of the apostle, and enjoyed in their turns the favor of
his conjugal society. What is singular enough, they were all
widows, excepting only Ayesha, the daughter of Abubeker. She was
doubtless a virgin, since Mahomet consummated his nuptials (such
is the premature ripeness of the climate) when she was only nine
years of age. The youth, the beauty, the spirit of Ayesha, gave
her a superior ascendant: she was beloved and trusted by the
prophet; and, after his death, the daughter of Abubeker was long
revered as the mother of the faithful. Her behavior had been
ambiguous and indiscreet: in a nocturnal march she was
accidentally left behind; and in the morning Ayesha returned to
the camp with a man. The temper of Mahomet was inclined to
jealousy; but a divine revelation assured him of her innocence:
he chastised her accusers, and published a law of domestic peace,
that no woman should be condemned unless four male witnesses had
seen her in the act of adultery. ^161 In his adventures with
Zeineb, the wife of Zeid, and with Mary, an Egyptian captive, the
amorous prophet forgot the interest of his reputation. At the
house of Zeid, his freedman and adopted son, he beheld, in a
loose undress, the beauty of Zeineb, and burst forth into an
ejaculation of devotion and desire. The servile, or grateful,
freedman understood the hint, and yielded without hesitation to
the love of his benefactor. But as the filial relation had
excited some doubt and scandal, the angel Gabriel descended from
heaven to ratify the deed, to annul the adoption, and gently to
reprove the apostle for distrusting the indulgence of his God.
One of his wives, Hafna, the daughter of Omar, surprised him on
her own bed, in the embraces of his Egyptian captive: she
promised secrecy and forgiveness, he swore that he would renounce
the possession of Mary. Both parties forgot their engagements;
and Gabriel again descended with a chapter of the Koran, to
absolve him from his oath, and to exhort him freely to enjoy his
captives and concubines, without listening to the clamors of his
wives. In a solitary retreat of thirty days, he labored, alone
with Mary, to fulfil the commands of the angel. When his love
and revenge were satiated, he summoned to his presence his eleven
wives, reproached their disobedience and indiscretion, and
threatened them with a sentence of divorce, both in this world
and in the next; a dreadful sentence, since those who had
ascended the bed of the prophet were forever excluded from the
hope of a second marriage. Perhaps the incontinence of Mahomet
may be palliated by the tradition of his natural or preternatural
gifts; ^162 he united the manly virtue of thirty of the children
of Adam: and the apostle might rival the thirteenth labor ^163 of
the Grecian Hercules. ^164 A more serious and decent excuse may
be drawn from his fidelity to Cadijah. During the twenty-four
years of their marriage, her youthful husband abstained from the
right of polygamy, and the pride or tenderness of the venerable
matron was never insulted by the society of a rival. After her
death, he placed her in the rank of the four perfect women, with
the sister of Moses, the mother of Jesus, and Fatima, the best
beloved of his daughters. "Was she not old?" said Ayesha, with
the insolence of a blooming beauty; "has not God given you a
better in her place?" "No, by God," said Mahomet, with an
effusion of honest gratitude, "there never can be a better! She
believed in me when men despised me; she relieved my wants, when
I was poor and persecuted by the world." ^165

[Az]

Zobo: the fact is , they didn't change much in the last 800 years or so. Christians did, With the most important factor of their social evolution is stopping being christians.

[Az]

But one day the prophet "beheld in a loose undress, the beauty of Zainab, and burst forth into an ejaculation of devotion and desire

[ZoboZeWarrior]

For the Q'ran stuff, I will check this week-end .

For the religion evolution : How was the christian religion around 400 and 500 year ago ? Cool ?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Chris 62
Name one Christian state since 1700 that forces it's citizens to pray.

Alabama.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Alabama.

[Az]

Zobo: it was already improving, while the west was still at about the same level with the east. The reformation came, secularization of the society came. you know, all the good stuff.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

I was improving a little ... education was controlled by religion, Religious war ... please ...

WTF, I'm getting bored as I'm not a muslim supporter. But I don't considere that muslims are worste than christians as you (and with Baggins (sooo preciousss) BS.

You could say the same bull**** on Jesus (refer to a not so old thread).

Still I agree that many muslim country need some revolution. But it will be hard because the most fundementalist states are helped by western countries and while (oddly) muslim peoples feels that islam is a shield against western culture.

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior

Jesus suddenly had 23 wives?

Just because you don't like the evidence... stamping your feet and grinding your teeth online doesn't make you right.

Find reproducable evidence, and we'll listen.