Which Civilization has been the biggest bunch of bastards throughout history?

[KrazyHorse]

Most in the west couldn't name the first American in space, or the date of the first Moon landing, what makes you think they would recall the first man in space?

Alan Shepard. John Glenn for the first real ride (orbit like Gagarin).

July 22nd for the Moon landing? IIRC it was within a week of Woodstock.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Ethelred

That, along with the slaughtering, is why I voted for Russia.

I hope you guys learn sometime that its possible to have a leader without having a paternal despot.

As I said you can't understand our local showdowns, and why we lived under such rulers.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Serb

First American spacemen- Alan Shepard, right? As for date of Moon landing you catch me there, just remember it was in 1969.

I watched the Moon landing and I don't remember the date. Just the year.

Too bad it was Neal first man to step off the LEM, he was a test pilot. Buzz Aldrin was the real astronaut.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Originally posted by GP
Zobo, why do you have trees along the Champs d'Elysses (sp?)?

We are breeding snails here ...

[devilmunchkin]

i'm going to go ahead and pick spain...
the site of the ostrogoths, spanish armada, spanish inquisition, controllers of the papacy at one time (and therefore the roman empire), and i want to say product of a tyrannical government
but don't hold me to that right now as it's 3 am and i jut finished a huge paper.

[Hoek]

To anyone who thinks Islamic civilization has been the worst needs to get their heads out of their asses. While currently Arab (and not all muslim countries are Arab) civilization is clearly the worst out there, all throughout the dark and middle ages, Islamic civilization carried the mantle of classical civilization. Our entire numerical system is based on Arabic math, and much of what we know about Astronomy originated from Arabic studies. It wasn't until the 20th century that it became so crazy.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Originally posted by MrFun
I would have also voted for Palestine, but there is no Palestine nation.

Oh your position in Israel make you writing bull****, too ...

[Tolls]

Chris:
"i also recognize that it is mired in backwardness, it's own best scholars are saying so, and have been for years. "

Quite true, but how much of that is caused, not by Islam, but by centuries of Islam being caught under the dead hand of the Ottomans? Their rule has to rate as something of a travesty for at least the last 200 years of their existence...which to me places not Islam as bastards, but the Turkic/Mongol rulers that ended up killing off what enlightenment was left in the region. To blame an Islamic state's current backwardness on Islam is to aim at the wrong target in my opinion...it is akin to blaming the backwardness of West Africa entirely on the West Africans, rather than looking at the effects of colonialism.

The effect of the Ottoman occupation on the region is similar to the effect of the Soviet system on Russia.

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Good job. Thanks, but I'll stay in this "ivory tower" if the alternative is to wallow in the mud like you are.

It is amazing how some people can justify to themselves the murder of children.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


You wouldn't have a very easy time making one for France or England either...

Personally, on the choices that were there I was torn between Turkey and Spain, but the Mongols should have been included.

I agree, they got my 'other' vote too.

[Imran Siddiqui]

It wasn't until the 20th century that it became so crazy.

It wasn't so hot in the 19th Century either. As Tolls correctly points out the Ottomans presided over stagnation. The vitality of the Empire in the 15th and 16th Centuries was dead by the 19th, leading to the charges of 'Sick Man of Europe'.

One simply has to see some Islamic states in sub-saharan Africa to show that not all Islam is one that is like the Taliban. It is there where Islam merges with the idea of the stateless society, and provides some interesting results.

[Ethelred]

It is there where Islam merges with the idea of the stateless society, and provides some interesting results.

Yes very interesting. Like executing christians for commiting adultery even though they aren't Muslim. If Moslems are stupid enough to put up with that oppresion thats by choice as long as they ONLY subject each other to Islamic laws. When they start murdering people that aren't islamic that is a just bit past interesting. Its an atrocity.

And yes I do think execution for adultery is murder. Even when Moslems to do themselves but that more like suicide if you stay a Moslem under those conditions.

Perhaps by stateless you are thinking of Somalia where the rule by those with the most guns. Very interesting indeed. Chaos and anarchy in the modern world. Gives the rest of us an interesting example in how not to behave.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Colonial oppression is something that needs to be fought by any means possible.

I'll remember you feel that way when I and my indigenous comrades slip a grenade into your bed and blow you back to eurasia. If your girlfriend is there too we'll make an example of her as well. You murdering interlopers have robbed this continent long enough. You might claim that you yourself are as innocent as some of the Israeli children who have been murdered recently in regards to the genocide perpetuated upon my people, but I don't make these crazy rules, you do. Any means possible is a pretty simple stricture to obey. Eat lead.

[Imran Siddiqui]

AmerIndian?

edit: If so, I'd say the way they've been treated has been horrible. I disagree with the reservation system, AmerIndians should be given full rights that the rest of the citizenry enjoys.

Hell, if Israel fomally annexed the WB and Gaza, and gave the Palestinians the same rights as Jews in Israel (voting, court privileges, etc), then I'd have no beef with Israel. It is the fact that Israel is treating the WB and Gaza as their colonies where they can kick around Pals is disgusting.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yes very interesting. Like executing christians for commiting adultery even though they aren't Muslim. If Moslems are stupid enough to put up with that oppresion thats by choice as long as they ONLY subject each other to Islamic laws. When they start murdering people that aren't islamic that is a just bit past interesting.

They are called laws of the state. We subject people to laws that come from our 'Judeo-Christian' backround as well, whether they agree or don't. Sodomy laws which were on the books until very recently fit that mark.

And yes I do think execution for adultery is murder.

And Europeans think that execution for anything is murder. Your point?

Perhaps by stateless you are thinking of Somalia where the rule by those with the most guns. Very interesting indeed. Chaos and anarchy in the modern world. Gives the rest of us an interesting example in how not to behave.

No, I'm thinking of the pre-colonial societies in sub-Saharan Africa. They did not involve state politics and were basically run by villages. Very decentralized, not because they couldn't form a state, but their culture was for that decentralization. Learn some history, you dolt!

And, btw, Somalia isn't a Muslim nation-state.