Which Civilization has been the biggest bunch of bastards throughout history?

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Enough writing on Muslims to night. Tomorow I will quote you some verset, if I have time and courage ...

Now look at this thread : http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=47341

U will see that is easy to tell BS on religious text. The same BS you say about the muslim prophet.

See u tomorow.

[MrBaggins]

I'm not so much pro-Christian as anti-Religion... especially based on the nonsense texts that the religions are so proud of.

I don't care what BS is in the bible, in terms of this discussion... about Islamic attitudes to women. Especially with regard to good old Mo.

No matter what you do, you can't unwrite the bad bits of the koran or undo the 23 marriages.

[Imran Siddiqui]

So Muhammed was bad to women in 600 AD... OMG! Everyone else was enlightened towards them, right?

The fact of the matter is that the treatment of women in Islam was much better than it was in just about any other (at that time, modern) civilization.

[MrBaggins]

No, but the fact remains that no religion has ever been as discriminatory towards women. Jesus was apparently a saint towards women comparitively to Mo. If they ever actually existed that is... [EDIT Jesus and Mo' that is... not women ]

Then the other fact is that Western religions have significantly changed their tune over the last millenia... whereas Islam really hasn't. To do so would be revisionist... which is a big problem.

Women undoubtedly have the best deal in non-religious sectarian societies.

[Imran Siddiqui]

No, but the fact remains that no religion has ever been as discriminatory towards women.

Ask Christian women (before modern times) about that .

Then the other fact is that Western religions have significantly changed their tune over the last millenia

Yes, when you have 1800 or so years of the same religion, things tend to get changed. Islam is too young to go through all the reform movements. They may be coming, but at the same time, the religion is still fairly new.

[MrFun]

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

No, but the fact remains that no religion has ever been as discriminatory towards women.

Ask Christian women (before modern times) about that .

Then the other fact is that Western religions have significantly changed their tune over the last millenia

Yes, when you have 1800 or so years of the same religion, things tend to get changed. Islam is too young to go through all the reform movements. They may be coming, but at the same time, the religion is still fairly new.

We're getting away from the point.

What I contend is Mo' wrote this stuff in the Koran... are you saying its not there?

Would you suggest that the points I raised don't indicate that Mo' had 'problems with women'?

[MrFun]

1) There have been crimes against humanity committed by some Christians, and there have been humanistic progress carried out by some Christians.

2) There have been crimes against humanity committed by some Mulsims, and there have been some humanistic progress carried out by some Muslims.

[Imran Siddiqui]

When did I ever say that?

The fact is that women in 1000 under Islam were MUCH better off than women in the Christian realm (and in most other civilizations of the world as well).

[MrBaggins]

You posted in response to me... I was talking about what a bastard Mo was... not a comparison of Christianity vs Islam... it does remain however, that there isn't the same evidence that Jesus or his disciples proposed such ****ty behavior towards women.

Now were conditions for women different for Christians and Islamic women 1000 years ago? Possibly, but the point isn't provable one way or another... unless you have discovered some form of time travel. The point is not worth arguing... its moot.

We can look at contemporary societies... like say... Afghan women... and compare them to say... Italian women.

Whom would you say has more equality?

[Imran Siddiqui]

it does remain however, that there isn't the same evidence that Jesus or his disciples proposed such ****ty behavior towards women.

Yes, but the Church did.

We can look at contemporary societies... like say... Afghan women... and compare them to say... Italian women.

Why don't you pick a more equitable example (ie, one that doesn't show your bias.

How about Turkish women compared to Italian women?

[MrBaggins]

I'm discussing the Koran vs. the Old and New Testaments... going right to the source.

---

I was picking an example with fundamental Islamic views I.E. the Taliban regime vs. fundamental Catholic views

You just don't like the example because it destroys your argument.

[EDIT to further the argument of why I picked Afganistan... it is (or was) a culture where non-islamic practices were banned and hence is a better example than Turkey, which includes a great deal of secular influences, and a certain degree of diversity. Turkey would be an absolute best case scenario]

[Az]

The fact is that women in 1000 under Islam were MUCH better off than women in the Christian realm (and in most other civilizations of the world as well).

while I am not so sure of this being a 'fact' , my argument stands. There is MUCH more dinamic in western thinking.

Islam has been around as a religion for around 1200 years. Christianity (on a massive scale ) around 1800 . It's not a very huge gap.

How about Turkish women compared to Italian women?

....
that's not comparable. Turkey is much more liberal relatively to other muslim/arab countries , than Italy is to Christians.

I'd put Italy around upper-middle , with Turkey nearing the top, in its respective "category".

[SlowwHand]

You're arguing with a hobbit? Who cares what a hobbit thinks?

[Imran Siddiqui]

I was picking an example with fundamental Islamic views I.E. the Taliban regime vs. fundamental Catholic views

Italy?? Fundamentalist Catholic? LOLOLOL