Siro goes to to pre-military training

[TCO]

What is the name of the group that had Jonothan and Benjamen Netenyahoo?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


I knew the lieing and fraud were based on some bull****, selfish reason. I just couldn't figure out which one. Mea culpa.

Do you think anyone whos served in the military in other than a front line combat role is deserving of such language? Or am i misinterpretating the above post? (note that i did not serve in any role - i was not subject to the draft - I DID register- and did not volunteer - Im too old now)


LOTM

[Eli]

What is the name of the group that had Jonothan and Benjamen Netenyahoo?

Sayeret Matkal.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Natan
Goingonit, that's technically true but the term "fundamentalist right" is misleading in this context because the Haredim (extremely pious Orthodox Jews) are not, for the most part, particularly interested in the conflict. The Haredi parties switch from one end of the spectrum to the other on the issue of peace negotiations, depending on whether the Left or the Right can deliver the funding and the welfare checks. Neither Shas nor UTJ has a policy on the matter, AFAIK neither even mentions the matter in their respective party platforms.

To further clarify - the orthodox who are most extreme on religious issues, and most intolerant of secular israelis have historically been relatively moderate wrt to the arab conflict(though ive heard this has changed somewhat with the terr acts of the last few years), while the "modern orthodox" who are more moderate wrt to religion and secular israelis, are (usually, there are of course exceptions) among the most militant in Israeli society wrt to the Arab conflict.

this is not accidental, but has to do with the way they integrate religion and modernity.

the ultra orthodox reject modernity in principle (utilizing it only to make a living - theyre not Amish) and so reject the modern notion of nationalism, changing the world through human action,etc. They are fatalists, willing to leave big things to God - so to them politics is merely getting what you can out of a necessarily profane state (until the messiah comes)

To the "modern" orthodox, the spinozist idea of human action rather than divine, changing the world, is related to mystical ideas about human behaviour making the world ready for the messiah. Settling the land and establishing a Jewish state is part of this pathway. Secular Israelis, though they dont have the truth, are still part of God's plan to the extent they advance these things. Thus toleration, and even whole hearted co-operation with secular israelis and the secular state become possible, but on grounds that make compromise with those who oppose stand in the way of the messianic dream more difficult.

For more on this matter i recommend David Hartmans "Conflicting Visions"

NOte well - these are generalizations - there are ultraorthodox who are both less fatalistic and more hawkish than i describe above - notably the Lubavich - and there are modern orthodox who are moving away from the philosophy i describe above - noatbly the group called "meimad".


LOTM

[Berzerker]

Some of you guys walk into logical traps with the "sight" of a blind man. This quote exemplifies some of the nonsense on this thread:

Natural rights are an idiocy invented by people who are too used to their good livin'.

Then upon what basis would you condemn the Nazis? According to your "brilliant" argument, the victims of the Nazis had no rights. So why condemn the Nazis? Because they violated the rights of their victims? What rights? NATURAL rights!

Siro -

You know, a russian scientist did a reasearch once about the reason why Neanderthals got extinct.

One of his findings was that Neanderthals had no people who were ready to sacrifice one-self for the good of society.

How did he come to this "finding"? I'd love to know who he interviewed for this information.

Each person thought of himself alone, and thus the whole species disintigrated.

Gee, another Russian "psychic", or did he ask Shirley McClaine?

So basically you want the government to offer you safety, but you're not willing to give your hand to the fight?

You need to read more closely what David posted, he opposes the draft - forcing others ("government") to risk their lives for his safety. To draw the conclusion he wants "government" to protect him without paying for it with blood or money is a demagogic strawman.

Obviously I will usually think of my self first, but I will not, ever, leave my familiy / friends / country men to die and run off.

Even when they are stealing other people's land?

notyoueither -

Natural rights? Pfff. They are the artificial arguments of pampered people who have never had to face tough choices.

The Founders of the USA believed in and advocated natural rights. Are you suggesting they never had to face tough choices?

The only rights any man or woman truely owns are the ones they are prepared to defend in the face of those who would deny them.

You don't even understand the meaning of the phrase "natural right". It is a moral or just claim made by individuals. One can have a natural right and never lift a finger to defend themself.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Some of you guys walk into logical traps with the "sight" of a blind man. This quote exemplifies some of the nonsense on this thread:

notyoueither -

The Founders of the USA believed in and advocated natural rights. Are you suggesting they never had to face tough choices?

You don't even understand the meaning of the phrase "natural right". It is a moral or just claim made by individuals. One can have a natural right and never lift a finger to defend themself.

And some people make absurd statements with the surety of the deluded. I was addressing someone who said "natural rights, by definition, exist no matter what." Well, that is a nice sentiment, but it is also a fallacy.

As to the founders of the United States of America. They did indeed believe that the rights they were codifying existed in some sense beyond thier own existence. They, like the other fellow, were wrong.

Rights are constructs. They are a product of a society, not one of the primary requirements of one. There is no metaphysical book of rights from which certain learned humans have gleaned wisdom and reported back to the rest of us. Rights which are destructive to a society are no more natural than the weapons a society's enemies would use to destroy it and them. To suggest that the young people of Israel enjoy some "natural" right to avoid contributing their part to the survival of that nation is absurd in the extreme. Or so I believe.

BTW. The founders of the United States enjoyed their rights because they conceived of them and then stood up and took them. They were far from passive.

What I don't understand is individuals who divorce themselves of the notion of any God, yet cling to ideas about the universe that would be better served by divine right. I do not know if you are one of them, I just find them funny. There is no God, but they still feel a need for some "higher" justification for their existence and their societies so they pin their hopes on fallacies. It is as if they cannot bear the consequences of the terrible isolation their entirely material universe has confined them to.

At least if you believe in God your belief in the existence of natural rights divorced from the socities that create them is coherent. If not, well... How's Santa Claus doing?

[Edited for grammar]

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Do you think anyone whos served in the military in other than a front line combat role is deserving of such language?

No, I don't. However people who conciously lie on official tests in an active attempt to avoid such duty when they are signing up, do deserve such language IMO.

[Chris 62]

Siro,

Listen to what they tell you, and pay attention, your life may depend on it one day.
Take it on faith they know more then you, so listen to what your told in instruction.
Keep in mind they have your best interest at heart, namely keeping you alive and fighting.

Good luck, and I'm sure you will do fine.

Floyd

You are such a Mary.
One day you will be in a spot where you need help, and you will die because all know what a selfish person you are, and nobody will help you.
Good luck to you too, you need it more then Siro.

[Tingkai]

Siro:

Your training camp sounds like pretty easy stuff. Shouldn't be hard. Try to enjoy yourself.

A lot of basic military training is designed to put you under high stress with the goal of teaching you to remain calm under these circumstances. I don't know if this will be the case with your camp, but if you encounter this type of training, try to think of it as game. If you stay calm, you win. If you lose your temper, you've learned a lesson and next time you'll do better. It's nothing personal.

If things seem stupid, try to see the hidden logic.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by red_jon
I'd dodge draft unless there was a serious war.

But then I'd be useless in the army anyway.

You're joking, right?

Israel has been unofficially, in a constant state of war.

[Zevico]

Wow. My 2nd cousin can't tell me what he does in the army... Something in communications though.

[Az]

Siro: This is childs play. It's annoying but fun at the same time.

-You're being told what to do
- You don't get enough sleep.
- You clean toilets at least once.

but you get to bond with your friends on a new level , so that's kinda fun.

But still, easy ... .

I couldn't take a sh!t for the whole time though ...

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Dalgetti
but you get to bond with your friends on a new level , so that's kinda fun.

Remember: Don't ask & Don't tell.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


Remember: Don't ask & Don't tell.

So they are taking the ancient Spartan route of military training uh.

[Az]