Siro goes to to pre-military training

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Felch X
I don't know about you, but if I were an Israeli kid still in high school I'd be terrified of having to fight out in those camps.

I'm not saying that he shouldn't be scared of going into the camps, Felch. Only a fool or someone ignorant of reality wouldn't be scared of going into a combat zone. What I'm saying is that he is letting cowardice and selfishness get the better of him.

[Seeker]

BTW, according to some friends in the Army most of Canada could quickly be taken over by 1 Belgian paratroop division...

[Natan]

Goingonit, that's technically true but the term "fundamentalist right" is misleading in this context because the Haredim (extremely pious Orthodox Jews) are not, for the most part, particularly interested in the conflict. The Haredi parties switch from one end of the spectrum to the other on the issue of peace negotiations, depending on whether the Left or the Right can deliver the funding and the welfare checks. Neither Shas nor UTJ has a policy on the matter, AFAIK neither even mentions the matter in their respective party platforms.

[Goingonit]

Sorry, my mistake. Fundamentalist moochers.

[David Floyd]

MtG,

No offense, but it's selfish cowards hiding behind high rhetoric of who've assisted in the downfall and destruction of the societies and cultures they're a part of. A lot of places in the world have no real security threats, or else have an abundance of people who will do their part, to cover for the selfish yellow-bellies. Some parts of the world don't have that luxury.

The presence or absence of a threat doesn't give any government license to institute slavery, which is what conscription is.

There aren't any ****ing "natural rights" when you've got your back to the sea and a whole bunch of pissed off people with Kalashnikovs in your face who want to see you and your family and your people all swim.

Natural rights, by definition, exist no matter what.

And what "natural rights" are those, DF? The right to **** around with other people because it's entertaining? Where did that "right" come from. Let's not go into your little escapade, shall we?

Hey, **** you. I'm sure you've NEVER done something stupid while drunk. But since this has no bearing on the conversation, let's leave this issue alone.

Seeker,

BTW, according to some friends in the Army most of Canada could quickly be taken over by 1 Belgian paratroop division...

Which might be true if Belgium actually had any division-sized formations

DD,

What I'm saying is that he is letting cowardice and selfishness get the better of him.

His primary responsibility us to protect his own life, not the lives of others. You call it cowardly, I call it a good, rational decision based on notions of logic and self-preservation.

Goingonit,

DF: In Israel, AFAIK draft dodging identifies you with the fundamentalist right - if you go to a yeshiva (a religious school) you don't have to serve in the military.

Hmmm. I think I'd enter a religious school. Much easier than either leaving the country, or getting a gun and defending yourself from the government.

[Goingonit]

Originally posted by David Floyd
The presence or absence of a threat doesn't give any government license to institute slavery, which is what conscription is.

Not in a population of immigrants. Hardly anyone has roots there, at best most people are 3rd generation immigrants. If you move to/live in Israel, the idea is that your military service is part of the deal - if you take advantage of Israel as a safe haven for Jews, you must defend it for all others who follow in your footsteps.

Hmmm. I think I'd enter a religious school. Much easier than either leaving the country, or getting a gun and defending yourself from the government.

That's the easy way out. You are absconding your responsibility to defend the society in which you live.

BTW, I am not, nor will I ever be, in the military. This is because I live in a country that does not have any threat that would mandate a conscript army. That is why I would not move to Israel.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by David Floyd
You call it cowardly, I call it a good, rational decision based on notions of logic and self-preservation.

I guess that we will have to agree to disagree on the definition of cowardice, selfishness, and hypocrisy.

[Natan]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Hmmm. I think I'd enter a religious school. Much easier than either leaving the country, or getting a gun and defending yourself from the government.

Trust me, you'd want to leave the country. The religious schools are like colleges, except there's no drugs or women, booze comes only on holidays, and the only subjects are Talmud, Talmud commentary, and Kabbala.


goingonit: Bah!

[Seeker]

http://www.mil.be/armycomp/units.asp?LAN=E

my mistake, brigade.

[David Floyd]

Yeah, so I'm a pedant. Sue me.

[notyoueither]

I think GC Scott said it best as Patton

"No poor, dumb b*st*rd ever won a war by dying for his country. He made that other poor, dumb b*s*trd die for his." Or something like that.

re Natural Rights. In a jungle the only rights are the right to eat and the right to be eaten.

[David Floyd]

So you admit there is a fundamental right to life. Good. Now we're getting somewhere.

[notyoueither]

The "fundamental" right to life ends after you draw your first breath. After that, you eat or be eaten if you live in a jungle.

Natural rights? Pfff. They are the artificial arguments of pampered people who have never had to face tough choices. The only rights any man or woman truely owns are the ones they are prepared to defend in the face of those who would deny them.

Are you going to stand up behind Siro when he tells the Israeli state that he shouldn't do his part when they live in an ocean of hatred? Didn't think so.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by notyoueither

Are you going to stand up behind Siro when he tells the Israeli state that he shouldn't do his part when they live in an ocean of hatred? Didn't think so.

Siro is going to tell that to the Israeli government??
Maybe I missed something ...


On another note I sincerely hope he remembers, when singlehandedly facing off against a militant band of armed Palestinians, that most of them are probably more reasonable than people here.

[Mark_Lipovrovskiy]

Natan, the fundamentalist parties have consistently shown hawkish tendencies and were pretty much always against peace and negotiation. Which is one of the many reasons why they are so much disliked by the secular guys - they are always for fighting, but they never fight.

Siro - Good Luck. They cut mine short a day before we were supposed to shoot stuff... I got all the annoying running around and stupid lectures, but no shooting. Dang
Don't let it happen to you. It probably won't.

People - just FYI: This camp thing is simply a kids' play... They make us run around for a while and then sit and listen to lectures. We also get some 11 bullets and an old M16 in a shooting range
So it's not the army, it's just a special camp to scare kids

~Mark