"Darwin's Dangerous Disciple"

[David Floyd]

Like I said atheism is not a postive doctrine or ideology but a negative stance in repect to a supernatural belief. Atheists have about as much in common as people who don't believe in elves a lot of times.

Fine, but the Soviet Union and Communist China were both atheist states.

Actually the guy was very religious and did think he was doing God's work. But given what your saying is true...how was that in any way a "counter-example"? I nor did Dawkin's ever say religion was the only thing that creates terrorists or violent fanatics. Only that it's a major thing which does.

No, I was responding to your implication that if a Christian commits a crime it was because of Christianity which is patently false.

That's pure speculation, but in any respect he did promote it and many of the Nazis believed in the Christian God. In fact Nazi proopganda went so far at one point as to suggest that Jesus was an Aryan(which isn't too bogus for the Nazis, seeing as Hitler started saying that the Japanese were Aryan.)

You just proved my point - the Nazis called the Japanese Aryans for the same reason they talked about God - propaganda and appeal to the common German citizen, who was in many cases religious.

[Logical Realist]

Maybe but these people were atheists.

Like I said atheism is a negative stance not a positive doctrine. It thus promotes nothing and atheists have about as much in common as people who don't believe in elves do.

So? It wasn't in the name of God or anything.

The guy was still very religious and thought he was doing God's will. Read the Turner Diaries, which was this guy's main inspiration. Also then, how is it a "counter-example", I don't recall anyone mentioning that religion was the sole basis for these acts. Only one big factor in the equation, a lot of times.

Hitler was about as religious as the Easter Bunny, and whatever he said was for political propaganda only.

That's pure speculation. But regardless of that, Hitler did promote religion. ANd many Nazis believed in the Christian God. It went so far that propogandists were saying Jesus was an Aryan, which wasn't that much of a stretch in the Nazi system where the Japanese were also considered Aryans.

Sorry about re-typing this post it got deleted by accident.

[David Floyd]

And my responses are below

[Logical Realist]

No, I was responding to your implication that if a Christian commits a crime it was because of Christianity which is patently false.

To do that you would have to disprove all my examples, and show why religion was not the motivation. You have yet to do that even with the Oklahoma Bomber.

Look at it this way: Even if the Oklahoma bomber was not mitivated by religion.It doesn't mean that the other people were motivated by religion. There is just nothing that gets you from one point to another. Also keep in mind that people can be motivated by more than one thing: religion and something else. Hence not only do you have to show the presence of another motivation but show that religion didn't factor into it.

You just proved my point - the Nazis called the Japanese Aryans for the same reason they talked about God - propaganda and appeal to the common German citizen, who was in many cases religious.

No, the Nazis called the Japanese Aryans for the sake of a political alliance. They talked about God because belief in God can inspire people to do violent acts of self-sacrifice. In that way, you actually proved my point.

Yes, finally saw them.

[David Floyd]

To do that you would have to disprove all my examples, and show why religion was not the motivation. You have yet to do that even with the Oklahoma Bomber.

Look at it this way: Even if the Oklahoma bomber was not mitivated by religion.It doesn't mean that the other people were motivated by religion. There is just nothing that gets you from one point to another. Also keep in mind that people can be motivated by more than one thing: religion and something else. Hence not only do you have to show the presence of another motivation but show that religion didn't factor into it.

So you think that if someone CLAIMING to be a Christian murders someone, it was because of Christianity?

No, the Nazis called the Japanese Aryans for the sake of a political alliance. They talked about God because belief in God can inspire people to do violent acts of self-sacrifice. In that way, you actually proved my point.

Hitler talking about God didn't make anyone braver on the battlefield, it just made the people feel they had something in common with Hitler and thus support him.

To do that you would have to disprove all my examples, and show why religion was not the motivation.

Give me a few weeks to get my other arm back so I can type properly - typing one-handed is really hard and tedious

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Logical Realist
Which was set up by a Christian.

This factored into the decision to bomb the federal building in what way exactly?

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


This factored into the decision to bomb the federal building in what way exactly?

Isn't it obvious? He was Christian! That's the reason any Christian does anything!

Jeez, DinoDoc... what a stupid question!

[Kaak]

man, it's getting crowded in that village idiot hat.

[Ramo]

Everyone makes assumptions.

Some of those assumptions (such as killing a bunch of heretics will get you into heaven) tend to be harmful to others.

Many religions assert these kinds of assumptions. Many non-religous philosophies also assert these kinds of assumptions.

'Nuff said.

[devilmunchkin]

Branch Davidians - these guys did nothing wrong, although the US federal government did

um wrong! David Koresh reoutintelysexually molested the children in the compound and then stockpiled weapons. When the government went to arrest him/them FOR stockpiling weapons..that's where everything went awry.

THis seems like it could be a NICE debate between you guys.

Which was set up by a Christian.

SInce when was Tim McVeigh an XIan?

I saw plenty of Islamic clergy on TV condemning 9/11.

We also saw plenty of islams: politicians, common, and clergy: condemming it.

Actually Hitler was a Catholic and many Nazis believed in God. Hitler at one point went so far as to say the "we need believing people" because atheism lacks a moral underpinning.

Hitler was also majorly into the occult....which is where he derived the swastika from.

But that doesn't mean that the action violated Islamic principles or that Islam is a religion of peace

by my muslim friends, i was always led to believe otherwise. that it specifically states in their tenets that militant behavior is a sin against allah.

[David Floyd]

When the government went to arrest him/them FOR stockpiling weapons..that's where everything went awry.

Right to bear arms is protected by the 2nd and 9th Amendments.

As to child molestation, let's not blame that on Christianity

[mactbone]

Ahh, but there are limits on what weaponry. Do you really think anyone needs an automatic rifle to just to hunt game?

Jimbo: "He's comin' right for us!"

[David Floyd]

Ahh, but there are limits on what weaponry.

Wrong, unless you can point out limitations in the Constitution (don't bother trying, you can't).

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Right to bear arms is protected by the 2nd and 9th Amendments.

9th ammendment? I don't want to ever see you complain about the SCOTUS expanding its own power again.

[Seeker]

(must....resist.....urge....to post in religion thread....made vow to self)