Galileo -- Why?

[Roland]

I doubt this is the actual goal, but if it is, why not.

"So why not put our finger on the scales and subsidize the Euro communications companies so that they are guaranteed to be players? It has worked so well in the aerospace market."

Just shows that we are much more efficient at the subsidising game. A few loans and guarantees, compared to all the pork barrel spending.

"This kind of thinking pisses me off to no end."

Then give your head a little rest.

[Saint Marcus]

DanS: Now you know how the rest of the world feels about US policies to protect it's own markets. And even after the WTO rules against the US in several cases, still they don't change their policies. It's only fair Europe is allowed to do the same things the US is.

[DanS]

"I doubt this is the actual goal, but if it is, why not."

Because it's anti-competitive bullsh!t behavior which distorts the market. This kind of thinking has already destroyed the aerospace market. Everybody is sucking at the *** of the state rather than innovating.

[Saint Marcus]

This kind of thinking has already destroyed the aerospace market. Everybody is sucking at the *** of the state rather than innovating.

True enough. How much money does the US gov give to NASA and aerospace companies?

[DanS]

MarkL: NASA gets about $15 billion per annum. The black (defense & intel) space community gets about the same amount; maybe a little less. On the aerospace side, it's a whole lot of business.

Overall, it's damn near impossible to innovate in this market, although the Russians have done their best, considering that they have some sheltering due to their exchange rate.

Re technology and open markets, the US is quite open to competition on its home turf.

[Roland]

"Re technology and open markets, the US is quite open to competition on its home turf."

LOL!

"Because it's anti-competitive bullsh!t behavior which distorts the market. This kind of thinking has already destroyed the aerospace market."

The US has a gigantic military research budget, and the dual use spin-offs come to Boeing and co at no cost. Much of your military spending is pork anyway.

(Oh btw, the next thingie is brewing already. The Commission is considering anti-dumping measures against ia US airlines that got a bundle from dubya's bailout.)

How exactly is the aerospace market destroyed ? Because Boeing no longer has a monopoly ?

[DanS]

"LOL!"

Well, in the areas that I know and deal with (computer software and hardware), it is very open. This is a huge industry.

"The US has a gigantic military research budget, and the dual use spin-offs come to Boeing and co at no cost."

That's true. But spin-offs are new tech and for some of it the Europeans/Asians have an even shot of commercialization. Consider the Japanese strengths in GPS handsets and other equipment, for instance.

"Much of your military spending is pork anyway."

Yes, but the pork mostly doesn't affect the markets of other countries.

"The Commission is considering anti-dumping measures against ia US airlines that got a bundle from dubya's bailout."

That's a tough call. I don't blame Europe for complaining, but these aren't open markets anyway. I just don't want the open markets that we do have to be fvcked up by unhelpful government actions. I especially don't want to see Europe's government actions fvck up American markets.

[Saint Marcus]

I especially don't want to see Europe's government actions fvck up American markets.

And the other way around? (airlines, steel, etc)

[DanS]

The airlines I've already addressed. The steel is a temporary measure, but I agree that it sucks and is unfair, if not technically illegal.

But what does this have to do with technology, anyway?

[Adam Smith]

Roland:

The US has a gigantic military research budget, and the dual use spin-offs come to Boeing and co at no cost.

I think we have been through this before. Are you saying the basic research results in both military and civilian products? If so, these are joint products (military, civilian) which arise from a common cost (research). As any good economist will tell you (in this case Nobel Prize winner George Stigler's standard text, The Theory of Price, p. 165), "There is no corresponding possibility of calculating the average cost of one of several products. .... Such an allocation must be arbitrary, for there is no one basis of allocation that is more persuasive than others." Unless there is something else to this, the EU aerospace argument is economically baseless.

[TCO]

Roland, why don't you for once take an anti-Europe/pro-US position. You seem to take everything as some kind of **** size contest.

[Roland]

AS:

Yup, we have been through this before. And it is essentially an unquantifiable subsidy. Pretty much like the loans and guarantees for airbus, as I doubt you could find any market rate for those, at least for the initial ones. So there is little point in the permanent "evil, evil airbus" whining from the states.

"Unless there is something else to this, the EU aerospace argument is economically baseless."

Why ?

GP: Well, find me a topic where the US is right....

[Bereta_Eder]

[Adam Smith]

Originally posted by Roland
"Unless there is something else to this, the EU aerospace argument is economically baseless."

Why ?

The spending for basic research can not be allocated to either military OR civilian products, so you can't call it a subsidy for the commercial products.

And I am sure there is some consultant out there who could hang a rate of return on the Airbus loans. IIRC, the French Minister explicitly said the point was to make the loans at below market rates because of the beneficial (to EU) employment and market share effects. So state sponsored capitalism lives on the other side of the pond too.


evil, evil Airbus....

[Roland]

"The spending for basic research can not be allocated to either military OR civilian products, so you can't call it a subsidy for the commercial products."

If you say that in economics, only quantifiable things exist....

It doesn't matter much, because in the worst case, we'd have to replace loans with research grants.

"And I am sure there is some consultant out there who could hang a rate of return on the Airbus loans."

I'm sure there is a consultant out there who'd tell you how many angels fit on the head of a pin.

"IIRC, the French Minister explicitly said the point was to make the loans at below market rates...."

Doesn't mean that they had any idea where market rates would be, other than "very high".

"So state sponsored capitalism lives on the other side of the pond too. "

Sure.