Turkey shuts down Kurdish TV

[Roland]

Originally posted by Natan

The plot thickens. In English, the Nusayris are usually called Alawis, and the Library of Congress Country Study for Turkey refers to the Turkish sect as the "Alevis." However, it's not clear that they're distinct groups - the Library of Congress Country Study says that the Alevis are "usually associated with Syria" because they have held power there since the 1960s, which sounds like a description of the Alawis. It also says that almost all of Turkey's Arabs are Alevis (that should be Alawi, I believe) as well as many Turks and some Kurds.

One feature of the "Turkish" alavis is that they are 12er-shiites; not sure about the syrian ones (shia yes, but the nr?). For both Ali plays a role, but the Turkish alawis (Kibilbashis, Caifirs were older names I think) have no sharia - as law and as moral code. AFAIK it's a weird mix of islam, old anatolian cults... and maybe derwish movement and sufism ?

They may have similarities in their religion, but the syrian alavites are quite well organised, while the "turkish" ones have no clergy, no strict organisation, no dogma....

"Syrian" Alavis in Alexandrette, sure. After all the syrian region south of that former sandshak was the main retreating space for the syrian Alavis.

It's interesting; gotta check some stuff on this...

[Rufus T. Firefly]

You know, I so gobsmacked by the hypocrisy of a Christian criticizing Islam for being "spread through violence" that I overlooked the falseness of the assertion. Islam was not, by and large, spread through violence. It is true that Islamic warriors conquored a good bit of land, but they did not, generally, practice forced conversion. That particular value seems to be much more Christian.

And just to be clear, I rarely complain about fundies. I do complain about fundies complaining about being persecuted after travelling halfway around the world in order to do something designed to lead to persecution. Say what you like about the early church martyrs, but you rarely catch them whining incessantly.

[Lars-E]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
You know, I so gobsmacked by the hypocrisy of a Christian criticizing Islam for being "spread through violence" that I overlooked the falseness of the assertion. Islam was not, by and large, spread through violence. It is true that Islamic warriors conquored a good bit of land, but they did not, generally, practice forced conversion. That particular value seems to be much more Christian.

Christians cannot criticize islam due to christian history. Well well. Selfimposed censorship?

Islam was spread thru violence - wheter this was by conquest or conversion is not a question raised by me - the important thing is the result. Are you denying the results? Is North Africa not muslim

[Rufus T. Firefly]

The Islamic Empire also disseminated knowledge of algebra and paper-making. Ergo, algebra and paper-making were spread by violence. That's the logic here, right? So why are you wasting time at Apolyton? It's clearly time to toddle off to the math department and begin preaching against quadratic equations and the books that contain them!

[Lars-E]

The Islamic Empire also disseminated knowledge of algebra and paper-making. Ergo, algebra and paper-making were spread by violence.

So spreading math thru violence is a good thing? This is already working in inner city us ghettos?

That's the logic here, right?

Your kinda logic.

So why are you wasting time at Apolyton? It's clearly time to toddle off to the math department and begin preaching against quadratic equations and the books that contain them!

Why do you blame math? I thought we're talking about ppl? I know that mankind is inherently evil, but that this goes for math books as well is hard to believe

[Natan]

Originally posted by Roland
One feature of the "Turkish" alavis is that they are 12er-shiites; not sure about the syrian ones (shia yes, but the nr?). For both Ali plays a role, but the Turkish alawis (Kibilbashis, Caifirs were older names I think) have no sharia - as law and as moral code. AFAIK it's a weird mix of islam, old anatolian cults... and maybe derwish movement and sufism ?

That's similar to the Syrian version, except that the Syrian Alawis are not really shi'ites - they sometimes call themselves that but are not accepted as such by most Shi'ites. They hide their religious beliefs to avoid persecution (Islamic Taqiyya) but their rites are said to involve the consumption of wine and they apparently attribute divine qualities to Ali and celeberate many Christian holidays.

They may have similarities in their religion, but the syrian alavites are quite well organised, while the "turkish" ones have no clergy, no strict organisation, no dogma....

The Syrian Alawis have a dogma - but they won't tell even their own members what it is. Maybe I have them confused with the Druze on this last point, but IIRC, the Alawis in Syria ritually swear to the truth of doctrines which they do not know.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Lars-E
Reminds me of the greek ostracising criminals.

Hasn´t much to do with anything, but the Greeks deserve a defense here.

They didn´t ostracise criminals. Ostracism was not a punishment, and being ostracised was not dishonourable. The Greeks ostracised people who were considered politically dangerous. No proof was required, just a majority of votes. They had to go into Exile for ten years, but were not otherwise subject to a loss of property or rights. A preventive measure like that would be a good thing to have. For example, we Austrians would be able to ostracise Haider.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Sikander
Only in it's early Roman history was it a religion of the weak, and that didn't last long.

Some would consider a few hundred years quite a long time.

The rest of your post is a pseudo-leftist demonization of Christianity, that is obsolete. The last witch was burnt in 1827.

And, of course, Christianity was not just about witch burning. Without Christianity, there would have been no Enlightenment, either. (The morality of both schools is nearly the same. Staunch atheists like Rousseau and Hume have a morality that is hardly any different from Christian thought, and they would not likely have been possible without the fundament of a Christian civilization.)

'Leftist' ridiculing of Christians is soooo yesterday.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
Islam was not, by and large, spread through violence.

If you do not belong to a 'religion of the book', it is 'convert or die'. If you are Jewish or Christian, it is 'convert or super-tax or die'.

I tend to defend Muslims where they are persecuted, but I must admit I can imagine a more tolerant religion.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

It depends which one - in Ottoman empire Christianity was allowed to survive and people were not prosecuted because of their faith as far as I know and churches still had their official patriarchs - orthodox church leaders- in place to my knowledge. However Crhistians were taxed more I think. Muslim lands have turned much more fundamentalist lately with Islam revolution Saddam and the like.

[Comrade Tribune]

That´s what I say: Jews and Christians were allowed to keep their faith if they regularly paid a fine. For all others -say, Buddhists or Pagans- it was either convert, or watch the potatoes from below.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
That´s what I say: Jews and Christians were allowed to keep their faith if they regularly paid a fine. For all others -say, Buddhists or Pagans- it was either convert, or watch the potatoes from below.

But weren't the christians of the same time even worse - crusades and naturally no muslims could stay muslims under christian territory.

[Ramo]

Islam was not, by and large, spread through violence.

That's an absurd assertion! If you do not consider extortion (painfully high taxes) "violence," consider India (particularly, the pre-Mogul period), for instance.

[Shi Huangdi]

My bad about KLA and PKK. But anyway claims of a "genocide" against the Kurds are absurd. Genocide is an attempt to wipe out a group. Seeing as how Kurds make up 20% of the population in Turkey and violence has halted, it's pretty outrageous to accuse Turkey of genocide. And while it does ban islamic fundamentalism, I hardly see that as any worse than European countries banning nazism.

"Good point. Firefly don't care as long as he, the catholic-, and greek-orthodox church are allowed to carry on with dead religion. As long as that happens he needs not face up to new religious thought. Yeah, it can be a sweat."

Not that I agree with religious persecution, but with this attitude towards other religious beliefs it is easy to see why they don't like you.

[Ramo]

But anyway claims of a "genocide" against the Kurds are absurd.

Regardless of semantics, Turkey is responsible for recently massacring tens of thousands of Kurds, and forcing millions into refugee status.

Genocide is an attempt to wipe out a group. Seeing as how Kurds make up 20% of the population in Turkey and violence has halted, it's pretty outrageous to accuse Turkey of genocide.

According to www.dictionary.com:

genocide n : systematic killing of a racial or cultural group [syn: race murder, racial extermination]

Which Turkey has certainly committed against the Kurds.