Turkey shuts down Kurdish TV

[Lars-E]

Originally posted by lightblue
I hate evangelists . People can believe whatever they want, but don't try and tell me about your love for God, 'cause I cannot be held responsible for my actions when another one of those jokers comes up to me.

Whatever happened to walking away?

Or do they give you electroshocks and tie you up? By the sound of you that's what goes around.

And if they're just joking why do you get all hot and bothered for?

Whi(e)ner.

As for Turkey, at least they have a largely secular government and army. What they do the Kurds isn't particularly civlised, but then the Middle East hasn't been at the forefront of civilisation for at least a couple of thousand years...

Right, but they pretend otherwise. They're NATO members and wanna join EU. Just for being NATO members demands should be made.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Drekkus
Are the Kurds muslim?

Ask Saladin.

[Shi Huangdi]

Right, Turkey should just let the support of insurrection all they want.

KLA = Terrorists who have murdered tens of thousands of innocents.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
KLA = Terrorists who have murdered tens of thousands of innocents.

KLA = Kosovo Liberation Army. They are terrorists who have murdered hundreds of innocents. With a helping hand from the West. Not tens of thousands, though. They might like to do so, but lack the organization.

Kurds`organisation = PKK.

[Roland]

Originally posted by Natan
Roland: 15-30 sounds much too high to me. My understanding is that the Alawis are almost all Arabs and those in Turkey (most live in Syria's Latakia province) are found mostly in Alexandretta in the corner of Turkey - which is why Syria's Alawi government wants to grap Alexandretta.

I almost wanted to include a "don't confuse with Alav- in Syria" disclaimer but didn't expect anyone would bring it up. I'm not sure about the origins of the name, but the Syrian Alavites were originally called Nusairians, while the Alawis in Anatolia are not very strictly organised as a church, and Turkey counts them simply as Muslims in the census. They're two different groups. As for details I'd have to look for resources....

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Lars-E


Not really talking about severe repression, but that you'll be given the evil eye if you evangelize.

Not recognizing protestants I'd say that Turkish authorities are God-botherers.

Also closing churches due to governmental criticism is over the line as well.

I like freedom of religion. How about you?

Yes, well, I'm fond of freedom of religion, too, but most countries don't have it, and Turkey's no exception. In fact, Turkey's status, so widely trumpeted after 9/11, as "the Muslim world's only secular state" is only possible because the government monitors all religious groups, frowns on all prosletyzing, and spends most of its time cracking down not on Christians but on Islamic fundamentalists. The only religions that seem to run into trouble here are the ones that run around trying to convert people; among Christians, that's the Protestants. The Catholics and Orthodox churches don't appear to have any need to augment their numbers with Turks, and are thus left alone and treated with respect. As for the God-botherers, they knew what they were getting into when they came; heck, it's why they came. Besides, the Turks are extraordinarily gracious hosts; but showing up to a 98% Muslim country and saying, effectively, "we think you're all going to Hell unless you change your beliefs to match ours, and we're hear to spread that message" is pretty much the height of arrogance and the soul of being a very bad guest. If someone said that in my house, I'd certainly show them the door.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Some religion huh?

Let's keep our bigotry out of this, shall we?

Anyway, like Rufus said, the Turkish government cracks down mostly on the Islamic fundamentalists.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

some older news about Turkish conducts

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1520000/1520664.stm

but isn't Greece - Turkey relatiuonship better lately?

[Natan]

Originally posted by Roland
I almost wanted to include a "don't confuse with Alav- in Syria" disclaimer but didn't expect anyone would bring it up. I'm not sure about the origins of the name, but the Syrian Alavites were originally called Nusairians, while the Alawis in Anatolia are not very strictly organised as a church, and Turkey counts them simply as Muslims in the census. They're two different groups. As for details I'd have to look for resources....

The plot thickens. In English, the Nusayris are usually called Alawis, and the Library of Congress Country Study for Turkey refers to the Turkish sect as the "Alevis." However, it's not clear that they're distinct groups - the Library of Congress Country Study says that the Alevis are "usually associated with Syria" because they have held power there since the 1960s, which sounds like a description of the Alawis. It also says that almost all of Turkey's Arabs are Alevis (that should be Alawi, I believe) as well as many Turks and some Kurds.

[axi]

Finally, as a Christian living in Turkey, I'm unaware of any Christian repression here.

No, you are an American living in Turkey. Big difference there. You're untouchable.

In Nigeria, in the 60's, millions of black christians were massacred by the muslim majority. I bet you 100:1 that NOT ONE white christian got hurt by this.

[Lars-E]

Besides, the Turks are extraordinarily gracious hosts; but showing up to a 98% Muslim country and saying, effectively, "we think you're all going to Hell unless you change your beliefs to match ours, and we're hear to spread that message" is pretty much the height of arrogance and the soul of being a very bad guest. If someone said that in my house, I'd certainly show them the door.

I'm sure the turks are very gracious to you.

So all protestants in turkey are foreigners? I don't think so. Are you saying that protestants should be expelled? Reminds me of the greek ostracising criminals.

Some religion huh? Let's keep our bigotry out of this, shall we?

This was related to the fact that islam throughout history has been spread thru violence. And if that is due to the content of that religion then I don't care very much for it.

Funny that you don't climb up on your soapbox when christianity is degraded. Is it because degrading christianity is PC? Some americans think it's a sign of intellectualism to do so.

Critizing islam is taboo. Heck, I could get a fatwa on my head for doing so if i was well known. And this attitude of many muslims has nothing WHATSOEVER to do with what they believe in?

I have christian friends that fled from Iran due to their pastors getting hanged. Yes, they seem to practise a very tolerant religion in that country. And there are many others.

No, you are an American living in Turkey. Big difference there. You're untouchable.

Good point. Firefly don't care as long as he, the catholic-, and greek-orthodox church are allowed to carry on with dead religion. As long as that happens he needs not face up to new religious thought. Yeah, it can be a sweat.

In Nigeria, in the 60's, millions of black christians were massacred by the muslim majority. I bet you 100:1 that NOT ONE white christian got hurt by this.

This happens all the time all over the world, but is hardly noticed by the secular press. In fact, there has never been so many martyrs in history.

[Ramo]

When is the genocide coming?

You're a little late. What do you think has been happening the past couple decades?

IIRC, ~3500 Kurdish villages were destroyed, causing tens of thousands of murders and a couple million refugees...

[Rufus T. Firefly]

axi - Nobody's slaughtering Christians here, of any color, and Americans are not untouchable -- ask the American fundies. And this is not about Christianity, or even Protestantism; it's about prosletyzing. As a small "d" democrat, I believe in freedom of religion and think the Turkish attitude is wrong. But I find any religion which has, as one of it precepts, the need to actively convert others to be wholly repugnant.

Lars-E - Protestants shouldn't be -- and aren't -- expelled; heck, I was just at a Protestant ceremony last month. From my point of view, prosletyzers shouldn't be expelled either -- but that's not how Turkey runs the place. What get's me is that the fundies deliberately choose to come to a place where they know their activities will get them into touble, and then they whine about it when they do. I repect the integrity of civil disobedience, but whining about it afterwards kind of defeats the purpose.

Meanwhile, I "face up to" new religious thought all the time; in America, land of looney-tune Protestantism, it's impossible not to. Frankly, I find it ignorant and deluded, but that's just me. As I said, I think the fundies have a human right to preach; their just way, way down on my list of people to worry about.

Finally, your assertion that Islam was spread through violence, and this makes it different from Christianity, is either comically or tragically ignorant. If that's what's being preached here in Anatolia -- which played host in part to all 4 major crusades -- it's a wonder the fundies aren't being laughed right off the land mass.

[Sikander]

Lars,

if you think Christianity was spread primarily through the persuasive skills of powerless missionaries you really need to read a lot of history. Only in it's early Roman history was it a religion of the weak, and that didn't last long. The vast majority of Europe was Christianized by power. That power could be missionaries from the Roman Empire arriving at a Pagan kingdom and serving as emmisaries for the empire as well. They convince the King that if he were a Christian the Romans would not make war upon him, and that there would be better relations between them in general. Being a Pagan and not perhaps grasping the wicked tenets of a monotheistic religion the King converts, and tribe or nation 'X' becomes christian, at least in name.

Nobles who want to maintain blood ties to the royal family must decide whether to convert or become out of royal favor. They convert too. This is where things tended to stop. Christianity was a religion of the elite in most of Europe, which is why non chrisitians were called heathens (ie those of the heath aka peasants). It took another 1000 years for Christianity to effectively gain it's complete grip upon the population of Europe. This was done in a number of ways, from the relatively mild example of building cathedrals to overawe the peasantry to the incredibly savage exploits of 'Saint' Olaf and his ilk (convert or die right now). The witch hysteria which raged off and on for several centuries was another manifestation of how terror was used to eliminate the 'wicked' when all else failed.

Of course this is just in Europe. Everywhere else the missionaries came with soldiers, disease and conquest. Again the amount of savagery varied from none to outright genocide. Christianity and Islam are bloody brothers whose own complete intolerance for everyone else's point of view makes them blind to their own crimes and hypersensitive to anyone else's. Lars is a great example of this principle in action.

[Lars-E]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
Finally, your assertion that Islam was spread through violence, and this makes it different from Christianity, is either comically or tragically ignorant. If that's what's being preached here in Anatolia -- which played host in part to all 4 major crusades -- it's a wonder the fundies aren't being laughed right off the land mass.

I was not comparing it to christianity. And islam was spread thru violence. Denying that is either history revisionism and/or ignorant.

Suggesting that massmurder might be comical shows the indifference and low value you place on life.

I'm not talking about Anatolia, but the history of islam in general.

As I said, I think the fundies have a human right to preach; their just way, way down on my list of people to worry about.

You and many others in here don't worry about fundies. That's what you say. Yet in every other post you complain about them.

Lars,

if you think Christianity was spread primarily through the persuasive skills of powerless missionaries you really need to read a lot of history.

Oh brother!

How come americans don't read the posts they're supposedly answering?

I was talking about islam. Period.

I have read 25 volumes++ of world history. Carl Grimberg is probably totally unknown in the usa.

Nice of you to bring up christian history. Firefly and then you picked up on that, not me.

If I mention islam and wanna discuss islamic history why do you feel a need to divert the subject? Have you nothing to say about islam? Or are you afraid of getting your heads chopped off? Or do you feel it's the greatest belief system on earth? They way you jump to it's defence... Or is it just convenient to bring up christianity? Criticize it so you can be PC with the in-crowd who never give much effort into thinking for themselves. It's funny that if you criticize one religion the next thing you're gonna hear is something about christianity. Why is that? Why do you bring up other religions when there was no comparing of religions before the last posts (Firefly and Sikander's)? The history of islam itself is interesting enuff and should be discussed in here. There has not been much of that at Apolyton. Why? Is it a touchy subject to bring up? And God forbid: not PC? We must be PC