Resolved: All the world's problems are Europe's fault.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Lars-E
The Turkish invasion was stopped at Austria, not?

Twice. Quite seriously: Chances are, without us, most of Europe would be Muslim. And everybody would again complain about Austrians: 'It´s all your fault! Why didn´t you stop them?'

[mactbone]

Or we could've been muslim, back during Charlemagne's reign... when the Iberia Peninsula was conquered by Muslims...

[Roland]

Re: Ah, perfect!

Chris:

"And as usual Roland, it went straight over your head."

Nope, it was very nice, but not really a good troll to counter. Too confused and absurd on your side.

"You and your appologists have been droning on how Europe only acts for "moral reasons"."

Where have I said that ? That's so ****ing ridiculous (the claim as such and you attributing it to me) it almost hurts.

"What country suddenly doesn't like US policy? France."

Suddenly?

"My "solution" is to stop being hypocritical, and addmitting Europe opposses action against them on financial grounds, instead of the smoke screen thrown out by the French foriegn minister."

Not that simple. The approach is trade with'em, but neither get in bed with them nor start a war with them. Doesn't always work (see french support for the Algerian regime for example), it's not always followed, but it's a realistic approach. The US on the other hand gets into a honeymoon with a regime (Chile, Panama, the Shah), or fanatically demonizes a regime (Cuba, Iraq post 1990), based on some random calculation (throwing coins, maybe).

Both the US and Europe seek to underlay this policy with the moral highground. I'm more concerned with the practical and ethical implications of the results. Let's take Iran - do you want a trade embargo ? Do you want a war ? What do you want to do about it?

"No other non-asian nation deals with them, and Germany was in full accord with the US UNTILL North Korea was mentioned."

You have a serious problem with stats. No other non-asian nation is among those listed on that CIA site - which is, of course, not complete. I can't be arsed to search for north korean trade stats, but as things like food aid etc are technically counted as NK imports (which may or may not be done in those CIA stats), I'm sure the US is not far behind Germany as a trading partner. The little trade with NK does not move one flake of dust in Germany's foreign office. It's not even peanuts.

"... and end with Dubya attack."

I can't resist. He's just so incredibly dumb.

"I was showiing, and quite successfully, that France and Germany's sudden opposition seems to fit perfectly with their trade partners, but, as usual, Roland tells us it's just buisness."

I'm not sure what the message of this convoluted sentence is. But to explain it to you:
France's opposition on Iraq is not sudden, and it is tied into economic and strategic self interest. Germany's opposition on Iran is inter alia about trade with Iran, but to say that Germany goes against a US policy for 30 million $ in trade with North Korea is so absurd that it spoils every troll.

[Ming]

Re: Re: Ah, perfect!

Originally posted by Roland
I can't resist. He's just so incredibly dumb.

Talk about trolling
While you might think his foreign policy is idiotic (and some of it is), or that his positions on domestic issues are a little wacko...

please provide proof that he his "dumb"...

He has a degree from Harvard... he probably scored in at least the top 20% of standardized tests or even all his connections couldn't have gotten him into Harvard...

So to call him incredibly dumb is just so... so... so... incredibly dumb

[Saint Marcus]

He has a degree from Harvard

So? Prince Phillip of Belgium got an honorory PhD title from the University of Leuven.

But the guy is a total ******!!! Ask any Belgian this.

It was all over the news, and it's a public "secret" that the guy only got that PhD because of his connections.


Same with Bush and Harvard.

please provide proof that he his "dumb"...

Just listen to the guy speek and to the proposals he makes. He's a joke in international politics, and Berlusconi with him.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
It was all over the news, and it's a public "secret" that the guy only got that PhD because of his connections.

I thought that everyone knew that people only get honorary degrees becuase of thier connections.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
So? Prince Phillip of Belgium got an honorory PhD title from the University of Leuven.
Same with Bush and Harvard

An honorary degree is just that... not earned by class work, so it's not the same.

Just listen to the guy speek and to the proposals he makes. He's a joke in international politics, and Berlusconi with him.

I'm sure if everything you said in public was examined by the world, you would come across as a joke too... oh, that's right, we do read everything you post here, and you are a joke

[Saint Marcus]

I thought that everyone knew that people only get honorary degrees becuase of thier connections.

No, people get them for their accomplishments in a certain field.

I'm sure if everything you said in public was examined by the world, you would come across as a joke too... oh, that's right, we do read everything you post here, and you are a joke.

Duh. But you don't see me running for US' president, do you?

At least I'm not THAT dumb.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
No, people get them for their accomplishments in a certain field.

It must be different in Belgium.

[Saint Marcus]

Normally not.

Just this time.


And there were HUGE protests because of it.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Same with Bush and Harvard.

Another ignorant troll?

Bush went through the MBA program, took the tests, did the work. Honorary degrees don't come close.

And yes, in a battle of wits, I'd probably take Bush over you. Hell, I might take Giancarlo over you.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
Beware. Sooner or later our American friends here will start blaming Greece for the killing of Socrates.
(and yes I know, that's well before 1442.)

I'm not sure, he was a well-known pedophile !
It seems it was quite normal to love teen boys at this time.
I don't think that the puritan lobby will support such action.
(Sorry Socrates! )

[Saint Marcus]

And yes, in a battle of wits, I'd probably take Bush over you. Hell, I might take Giancarlo over you.

Battle of wits? Ok Einstein. I'm willing to make a bet (name the stakes) that my IQ is higher than Bush' and yours.

Then again, anyone would win a bet like that.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
And yes, in a battle of wits, I'd probably take Bush over you. Hell, I might take Giancarlo over you.

Who said that, in a battle of wits, you would qualify as a participant?

[Chris 62]

Hmm, you missed my point, Roland...

Originally posted by Roland
Nope, it was very nice, but not really a good troll to counter. Too confused and absurd on your side.

Not at all.
We both know that France will always follow the money, so the uproar about there sudden appearence of backbone is absurd.

Where have I said that ? That's so ****ing ridiculous (the claim as such and you attributing it to me) it almost hurts.

You know this whole thread is a theater of the absurd!
You do often gloss over salient points that hurt Europe's image, and have an...let's say "interesting" view of US politics.

Suddenly?

They made thier fears public, thus "suddenly".

Not that simple. The approach is trade with'em, but neither get in bed with them nor start a war with them.

Very difficult, and morally questionable.

Doesn't always work (see french support for the Algerian regime for example), it's not always followed, but it's a realistic approach.

Maybe it's time for a fresh approach, that doesn't tolerate barbaric behavior, might be in order, but very difficult to pull off.

The US on the other hand gets into a honeymoon with a regime (Chile, Panama, the Shah), or fanatically demonizes a regime (Cuba, Iraq post 1990), based on some random calculation (throwing coins, maybe).

Actually, it depends on the government in question.
Though your right, there does seem to be little ryme nor reason to it.

Both the US and Europe seek to underlay this policy with the moral highground. I'm more concerned with the practical and ethical implications of the results. Let's take Iran - do you want a trade embargo ? Do you want a war ? What do you want to do about it?

I think they see the west as "the pot calling the kettle black".
My point, which i think you understand, is the USA isn't a demon, and Europe is just as responcible for the shape of the world today, moreso even.
In real politik, Britain and France only renouced their empires because they couldn't afford them any longer after two crippling world wars.
For some of our "friends" to sit here and preach morality is quite laughable, as laughable as it would be for the US to do the same.

You have a serious problem with stats. No other non-asian nation is among those listed on that CIA site - which is, of course, not complete. I can't be arsed to search for north korean trade stats, but as things like food aid etc are technically counted as NK imports (which may or may not be done in those CIA stats), I'm sure the US is not far behind Germany as a trading partner. The little trade with NK does not move one flake of dust in Germany's foreign office. It's not even peanuts.

Man, you missed that!
It was an inside joke, using the CIA to back a postion on Europe's motives!
I thought for sure you would see that.
I think that search was about 20 seconds on my part, it was easy to find those links.

I can't resist. He's just so incredibly dumb.

I think what you see as "dumb" is really a lack of refinment.
The man may come off as silly, but he's quite intelligent, and far more dangerous then you realize.

I'm not sure what the message of this convoluted sentence is. But to explain it to you:
France's opposition on Iraq is not sudden, and it is tied into economic and strategic self interest. Germany's opposition on Iran is inter alia about trade with Iran, but to say that Germany goes against a US policy for 30 million $ in trade with North Korea is so absurd that it spoils every troll.

Needed a link to the third nation, tenuous though it was.
France will always follow the money.
It was laughable to see some Europeans "applauding" the French minister in another thread.
All nations act in their own self interest, that's why the world is the way it is.
To claim france suddenly found morality at this point is a major hoot!