Is An AIDS Vaccine Ethical?

[lightblue]

I really know I shouldn't, but...

First off to clarify: Mother-Fetus HIV transmission can almostly completely be avoided by AZT (I think). One of the big AIDS treatment sticking points last year was Mbeki's refusal to give pregnant mothers access to AZT because he didn't believe HIV caused AIDS. It is also passed via mother milk, but that can be avoided.

Secondly, Wiglaf: You sir are a moron. I realise you're just some troll snivelling away in your dank little room but still. It is now reasoned that AIDS will have killed more people by the end of the decade than the Black Death did in Europe.

I realise that the vaccine development goes slowly (for the technically interested it is because HIV is very good at any of its antigens being presented to the immune system, so it's hard to generate an immune response). But OK let's talk numbers. How much does one of them Tomahawk missiles cost you're so fond off? I'd guess about $35M. How much federal money goes into HIV vaccine research every year? I'd guess less than $1 Billion. That's 30 Tomahawks, which is about as much as you launched against a a couple of tents in Afghanistan.

Also your less than 3000 guess is completely and utterly wrong. First off there are 500000 babies infected (mostly in sub-saharan africa) by their mothers in 1999 alone. 19% off all Sub-saharan deaths are by AIDS. By 2010 it is recognised that 71M (!!!!) people will not be there that would've been there if it weren't for AIDS. http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/aids/stories/overview/

Then there are the infected needles/hospital equipment, the people that were raped... Some witch doctors in SA say that sex with a virgin cures AIDS (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wor...00/1706589.stm). And that's just a start.

Of course education is part of the solution, but it has to be done in combination with vaccine development and development of better, cheaper treatment. If we don't act then a whole generation will be lost, setting back the development of Africa by 50 years at least, not aside from completely destabilising the region.

It is our duty as human beings to ensure that people have a chance to make their life better, and people like you really don't help. And you call yourself Christian as well don't you? ****wit.

Okay over.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by El Awrence
Macuser (aka Wiglaf):

Aha! Well, that explains a lot.

[Maj]

People weren't demanding more airport security because, in case you didn't notice in the wake of the Gary Condit scandal, sex and AIDS was all we could talk about last summer.

Your gripe should be with the media and THIS society's largely unfettered interest in the sexual affairs of celebrities. Did the African AIDS-infected populace force our attention towards their plight with one big collective cry for help and did Congressman Condit beg to be splashed over the frontpage of American newspapers?

The pre-9/11 Americans were not demanding more airport security nor would they had the biggest piece of news been "Mongolian Leader to Celebrate 56th Birthday Next Month" rather than the AIDS conferences and Condit conundrums that were headlining the press. No airport security or War on Terrorism was thought necessary because the government and public believed no acts of terrorism were imminent. Should we begin investing billions of dollars into an Asteroid-Busting super cannon for the big rock that might arrive some day? Humans do not prepare for what they consider to be at most a remote threat.

Your argument reminds me so much of what is largely becoming embedded in our society's doctrine: Assume no responsibility for your actions and believe blame to be a parcel left only for delivery to the consciences of all but yourself.

You need a few lessons in ethics and logical deduction.

- Maj

[lightblue]

Originally posted by Maj

Your argument reminds me so much of what is largely becoming embedded in our society's doctrine: Assume no responsibility for your actions and believe blame to be a parcel left only for delivery to the consciences of all but yourself.

You need a few lessons in ethics and logical deduction.

- Maj

You don't know Wiggy very well, do you? Logical deduction isn't one of his strong points.

[Provost Harrison]

Wiggy rides again eh

Look kid, money isn't everything. If we can alleviate much unnecessary death and human suffering, damn well do it. An AIDS vaccine couldn't be anything other than ethical, and you are inhuman to think otherwise.

[ranskaldan]

Read my post a little better next time, Bil. I said the number of people with AIDS who didn't bring it upon themselves (either who didn't know the consequences of sex or who got it from a needle, etc) is probably under 3000. Let's face it, most of those 3.8 million didn't get AIDS from the air or whatever.

Well Wiglaf, of since, since those 3.8 million people didn't get AIDS from the air, they should deserve to die?

Thus, the 3000 people who died in 9-11 also deserved to die, because they either a) elected governments supporting Israel or b) work for the economy of a country supporting Israel?

I'm honestly, totally, disgusted.

[gopher]

The Horror................

How in the heck did this display of stupidity get a rating of 5 stars?

[Wiglaf]

Dunno.

Wombat:

Assuming your brain can cope with the maths, I'll bite:

Percentage under 16s in Africa: ~20% of population (maybe more)
So we have 3.8M*0.2 = 760,000 children with AIDS
then we estimate how many of them had unprotected sex (or caught through drug taking, whatever). I'll be genorous and say 60% (Utter bull****, but whatever...)
so 760,000*0.4 = 304,000 ie. about 10 times larger than you say. Who have AIDS because their parents had AIDS, and passed it on at birth. No fault of their own by any stretch of your twisted vile imagination.

I want a link for some of that. Bil, your's doesn't work - the PDF quits out with an error message.

Thus, the 3000 people who died in 9-11 also deserved to die, because they either a) elected governments supporting Israel or b) work for the economy of a country supporting Israel?

If you have sex in Africa odds are you die rather directly, nothing is "deserved".

I realise that the vaccine development goes slowly (for the technically interested it is because HIV is very good at any of its antigens being presented to the immune system, so it's hard to generate an immune response). But OK let's talk numbers. How much does one of them Tomahawk missiles cost you're so fond off? I'd guess about $35M. How much federal money goes into HIV vaccine research every year? I'd guess less than $1 Billion. That's 30 Tomahawks, which is about as much as you launched against a a couple of tents in Afghanistan.

All this "guessing" pisses me off. Find me some links. And none of the ones you provided tell me how many kids have AIDs, or where they got it from, or anything overly relevant.

Your gripe should be with the media and THIS society's largely unfettered interest in the sexual affairs of celebrities. Did the African AIDS-infected populace force our attention towards their plight with one big collective cry for help and did Congressman Condit beg to be splashed over the frontpage of American newspapers?

By killing an intern? You betcha.

[ranskaldan]

Of course, if you have sex in Africa, you will die, and the world community should, in fact, stand aside, and watch calmly the deaths of 3.8 million people?

Hello??? do you know what is happening in Southern Africa right now? The lifespans of those countries are about 40 years or less. AIDS, on average, takes away 20 years from each person. Of course, we should watch that happen without doing anything...?

[Bilo]

Originally posted by Wiglaf

I want a link for some of that. Bil, your's doesn't work - the PDF quits out with an error message.

Try those:

http://www.unaids.org/epidemic_update/report_dec01/index.html

http://www.unaids.org/worldaidsday/2001/Epiupdate2001/EPIupdate2001_en.doc

Originally posted by Wiglaf

All this "guessing" pisses me off. Find me some links. And none of the ones you provided tell me how many kids have AIDs, or where they got it from, or anything overly relevant.

Why don't you take your own advice and provide something that says defense spending were cutback due to AIDS research??

[Maj]

By killing an intern? You betcha.

Then let's agree Condit should have appearred in the media for the alleged murder of an intern (although their sexual relationship prior to her disappearance is really what made this story front-page-until-something-important-happens news).

I have to say the only reason I respond to your posts is because I fear later on in life I may actually have to deal with people like you in my daily affairs. The practice helps, I suppose.

Your comments are based almost entirely on spurious correlations and flawed logic. You demand others on this board provide "hard data" when you yourself seem hardly able to present anything more than arbitrarily manufactured figures.

You're on the right track when you speak of imbedding the "right mind-set" in the African populace if by that you mean educating them on the dangers of STDs and the proper methods of safe sex to avoid such them. But asking people to abstain from sex, however, is like asking them to cease all eating, breathing, and heart palpations.

[lightblue]

OK Wiggy,

The tomahawk is a bit cheaper than I thought (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/bgm-109.htm) $1.4M a piece on average. The total development costs were over $11 Billion.

A single B-2 Stealth Bomber cost $1.3 Billion (http://www.af.mil/news/factsheets/B_2_Spirit.html)

On average to develop a new drug costs $500M (http://www.thebody.com/gmhc/issues/j...1/r_and_d.html).

For an overview of what the NIH is funding on HIV research see http://www.nih.gov/od/oar/public/pub..._overview.pdf.

In the federal budget of 2000 $666M was set aside for HIV research (http://www.thebody.com/apla/june99/funding.html)

So two years of HIV research (potentially helping hundreds of millions of victims) costs the same as one B-2. And you're still saying the federal government spends too much on HIV research?

[Anodyne]

I was going to reply something really angry and pissed off, but reading all the other posts bashing Wiglaf kinda made my anger cease for a while...

...but I still have a couple of points, 1)Having sex in Africa means death. Well, you kinda have hard morals if you believe that death is a fair sentence for having sex. Having sex is one of the basic human rights and no one (ok, now you're going to say that I'm a sick pervert who rapes children...well let me then change this to 'no adult person'. and of course it takes two to tango etc etc... but let's not get into splitting hairs) should be denied of that. No matter what your religion says, but if God made sex sooooo evil and devilish, then why is it so enjoyable? I'm sure that those ~3000 died in 9/11 WERE having sex. Oh but wait. Surely they were good Americans and lived in pure selibacy.
AND OH!!! LOOK AT THE EVIL WORLD!!! Millions of people are having sex RIGHT NOW!!! Oh my god! Well I surely hope they all get AIDS and die. Oh, wait, not the white people of course...

You make me sick.

[Immortal Wombat]

Do I take it your brain couldn't cope with the maths?

$666M

See - EVIL!!!

[Velociryx]

OMG I wish I'd peeked in here sooner!

On second thought...there's just so many easy targest in Wiglaf's postings that I don't really know where to begin, but it IS a pretty original troll....interesting slant on the whole thing.

Thanks for the...ahem..."interesting" read, Wiglaf....

-=Vel=-

(who is strangely paralyzed at the sheer enormity of the target, and therefore, reluctant to even begin! lol)