Who's the Greatest Satan?

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Ok, in what way is the United States the "Greatest Satan"? Right now, its second place, only behind the British Empire. USSR was not as evil as US? Give me a break.

Seriously, how many voted for the US just because they like to be a troll, and how many can back up their vote?

[Dominikos]

Perhaps the Unites States is the Greatest Satan due to its foreign policy and meddling in the matters of other nations.

Let us ask ourselves a few questions:

Why was the United States involved in Vietnam?

Why was the United States involved in the Middle East during the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait.

Why does the United States have military bases in so many different countries and is allowed to make use of foreign military bases?

Why are so many foreigners opposed to the U.S. military presence in their countries?

These are but a few.

Ok, in what way is the United States the "Greatest Satan"? Right now, its second place, only behind the British Empire. USSR was not as evil as US? Give me a break.

Who claims that the Soviet Union was not as bad as the U.S. in its foreign policy in meddling in the affairs of other nations? Relax, the poll does not represent any significant group of people. The numbers are small and one cannot make a generalization based on such small numbers.

If anyone bothered to read my last post, I stated my opinion. Not that my opinion matters of course.

------------------
~Emperor Dominik~

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
The Mongols were worse. They destroyed civilizations by raping and plunder. They were a nomadic people and didn't think much of cities it seems by what they did to those they captured.

Hmm, Imran, you seem to be picking on the Mongols, but your acually repeating thier enemies' propaganda from almost 800 years ago!

The truth is, the Mongols never started war without some pretext, usually a refusal to pay tribute and insulting Mongol ambassdors in some fashion.(As an example, a Korezim mayor saved off the beard and mostaches of a Mongol delegation, the Mongols sent another to the Sultan, who promptly nailed the Mongols shoes to their heads (killing them, of course), the Mongol responce to this was an invasion that destroyed a nation with an army 250,000, yet the Mongols invaded with only 80,000!

Mongols would often give enemies the chance to surender, but it was understood (by them) that they would then kill the surrendering army, but spare a town or city said army was defending. However, resistance meant utter obliteration at their hands.

In Mongol controlled lands, the roads were patrolled agaist brigands, and trade was permitted.

Getting to this topic, having the USA in the poll is laughable, despite the many USA haters around here.

The winner hands down is the Soviets, who managed to inslave a good portion of the world's people in a represive system that thrived on fear.
First runner up is Britain, for reasons to numerous to list, just look up the "Raj" to get a real understanding of racism at it's most rampant.

[Guynemer]

Since when was it Julius Caesar who burnt down the Great Library?

It was destroyed around 415 C.E., after it's last great patron--"a mathematician, astronomer, physicist and head of the Neoplatonic school of philosophy"--a woman named Hypatia, was brutally murdered by a Christian mob under the influence of Cyril, Archbishop of Alexandria, who would one day be named a saint.

The loss of the Library set Western civilization back centuries, in both culture and science. For instance, of 123 plays of Sophocles kept in the Library, only seven survived, including "Oedipus Rex".

[SlowwHand]

Well if I can't vote for the Moors I'll just pick USA.
Why burden anyone else?

[faded glory]

Originally posted by Guynemer
Since when was it Julius Caesar who burnt down the Great Library?

It was destroyed around 415 C.E., after it's last great patron--"a mathematician, astronomer, physicist and head of the Neoplatonic school of philosophy"--a woman named Hypatia, was brutally murdered by a Christian mob under the influence of Cyril, Archbishop of Alexandria, who would one day be named a saint.

The loss of the Library set Western civilization back centuries, in both culture and science. For instance, of 123 plays of Sophocles kept in the Library, only seven survived, including "Oedipus Rex".

umm no Guyenmer

--->Click me <-----

You sounded SOOOO sure Unfortunately, they dont know what really happened or who burned it. But the Caesar one is the accepted one.

[Alexander's Horse]

Actually there are 3 main suspects of which Caesar is but one

[Dis]

woohoo!!!

USA is #1!!!, USA is #1!!!

[KrazyHorse]

Out of that list? Spain without a doubt.

[Fiera]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Out of that list? Spain without a doubt.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

USA!

[August Borms]

Spain:

- they captured the southern Netherlands in an insane catholic-fundamentalist murderous campaign
- they destroyed entire civilizations in the America's ( I remember reading something that they also burned down the (only?) Maya library because they thought the books were whispers from the devil )

[Fiera]

As much as I recognize Spanish history errors and crimes, I'd like to argue why I don't see those as worse as what other civilizations did:

Originally posted by Assur
- they captured the southern Netherlands in an insane catholic-fundamentalist murderous campaign

Not captured. It was part Charles V's heir, and the Dutch revolted after his death. From that time point of view, it was awfully right trying to regain control over the Netherlands. That's the way old monarchies worked, sorry. I can show you loads of similar situation in English, French, German, Italian, etc. history.

I accept, however, that the religion issue made the Spanish more fanatic. It was a high dishonor, for a people that considered themselves defenders of catholicism, to have lost territory to the Protestants.

- they destroyed entire civilizations in the America's ( I remember reading something that they also burned down the (only?) Maya library because they thought the books were whispers from the devil )

Not destroyed, but conquered. Destroyed is what Rome did unto Carthage. They deleted every trace of Carthaginian civilization, and built their cities over the ruins of Carthaginians ones.

The Spanish had this obsession for converting people to Christianism, but at least they were never obsessed with exterminating them because they had been their enemies!

[General Ludd]

Look's like someone is trying to rationalize...

No, they destroyed. They slaughtered the Incas, Mayans, Aztecs, and other tribes by the millions - the Incas didn't even resist.

Originally posted by Fiera Not destroyed, but conquered. Destroyed is what Rome did unto Carthage. They deleted every trace of Carthaginian civilization, and built their cities over the ruins of Carthaginians ones.

Sort of like how a colonial city now stands over the ruins of a Mayan city - with a cathedral built out of the very same stones the Mayans used to construct their temples. (I don't recall the city from this specific example - but I don't doubt this is the only example of this nature, anyways)

And of course, the most devastating of all is their destruction of cultures, records, and history.

And on that note...

( I remember reading something that they also burned down the (only?) Maya library because they thought the books were whispers from the devil )

I don't know about that specific insident, but I don't doubt it - they delibrately destroyed all writings, records, and many places of worship or culture belonging to the native peoples. Which is why we know so little about them, and why much of what we do know comes from the spanish records of the time - which is an obviously biased source. Thankfully though, archeologists can now piece together some of their history from what little remains are left - and from places the spanish didn't find.






I made this thread so people can discuss the atrocities of past and present, not so people can rationalize atrocities out of some sort of mis-placed nationalist pride.

[Fiera]

Re: Look's like someone is trying to rationalize...

No, I'm not trying to rationalize.

I thought that, by creating a poll, you wanted to compare one civs atrocities with another. That's what I'm trying to do, comparing with what every other 16th century kingdom did, in the case of the Netherlands, and comparing with the Romans, in the case of Americas conquest and colonization.

Originally posted by Osweld
the Incas didn't even resist.

That's a false statement, but I'm not going to argue on that point.

Sort of like how a colonial city now stands over the ruins of a Mayan city - with a cathedral built out of the very same stones the Mayans used to construct their temples.

Not sort of. If you ever heard the line "Carthago delenda est", you might appreciate the difference.

(I don't recall the city from this specific example - but I don't doubt this is the only example of this nature, anyways)

You're probably referring to Cuzco, capital of the Incas. But the walls are still there, Macchu Pichu is still there, and a lot of Incaic temples, as well as Mayan and Aztec are still there. At least they not "deleted" everything they found before they came in, so they could build as on empty lands.

And of course, the most devastating of all is their destruction of cultures, records, and history.

they delibrately destroyed all writings, records, and many places of worship or culture belonging to the native peoples. Which is why we know so little about them, and why much of what we do know comes from the spanish records of the time - which is an obviously biased source.

So how do you call the fact that Spanish priests and colonizers bothered to inquire about Inca or Aztec costumes and history, and later written about them (even when they offered a biased view)?

Isn't that a contradiction which what you call "destruction of cultures, records and history"?

Not a single Roman historian made an effort to save a tiny bit of Carthaginian history or culture. All we got is explanations of how the Carthaginians had breaken their treaties with the Romans, and tales of the Punic Wars.

I made this thread so people can discuss the atrocities of past and present, not so people can rationalize atrocities out of some sort of mis-placed nationalist pride.

As I said, I think I'm not trying to rationalize, neither do I argue out of nationalist pride. That's a hard thing to find in Spain today.

However, if you don't want to discuss along these lines, feel free not to. Perhaps others who have chosen Spain will.