State of Siege Declared for Argentina

[axi]

I can't believe that Giancarlo is actually against that govt and afraid of a military intervention. I'm impressed.

Of course it makes sense if you consider that all Argentinian politicians must be corrupted.

Viva el pueblo!

http://www.indymedia.org

[red_jon]

The US trade embargos against Cuba have been condemned by the UN (which of course the US ignores). I'd have to say Cuba has done pretty well considering.

As for Argentina, I wouldn't call any country where they execute homosexuals democratic (well, they aren't a Liberal Democracy). Liberal Democracies protect minorities, they aren't a tyranny of the majority.

Oh look, facts. I wonder how Shi will handle that?

[The Mad Monk]

Since Cuba can trade with every other nation on the planet, why wouldn't they be prospering? Assuming that they are prospering; if they aren't, what's wrong? Is the United States such an economic power that to be ignored by us is to face economic ruin?

[red_jon]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Since Cuba can trade with every other nation on the planet, why wouldn't they be prospering? Assuming that they are prospering; if they aren't, what's wrong? Is the United States such an economic power that to be ignored by us is to face economic ruin?

Not just that, (though the US IS an important country to trade with), also they managed to cope with the fall of the Soviet Union.

I'm not defending communism, I'm just saying that Cuba doesn't seem to have done too badly.

[The Mad Monk]

BTW, on what grounds is our embargo condemned by the United nations?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Since Cuba can trade with every other nation on the planet, why wouldn't they be prospering?

Ummm...the US is 90 miles away from them and constitute the biggest single market on the planet. All other potential 1st World customers are at least 1500 miles away from them. This drives down the price they must accept for their products. Tourism is another giant factor. Cuba's closer to the US than any other tropical getaway. Cuba is one of the cheapest such vacation spots on the planet because of the low demand (at least 80% of tourist trade in the Caribbean is American) caused by the embargo.

Is the United States such an economic power that to be ignored by us is to face economic ruin?

Yes, for all countries in this hemisphere.

[Giancarlo]

2nd world has a different meaning since the fall of communism, but I shall say this: anywhere between developed and developing. This country may be 1st world on the surface, but if you scratch into the surface of it, it certainly is third world. Oh and you *******s better not call me bam any more because 1) It is false, 2) I live in Argentina and 3) you never back up what you say anyways.

You may not believe this but in midst of the resignation of De La Rua the stock market Merval soared 17%. I think investors are eyeing the current situation because it seems like there will be change. But of course, I wouldn´t do what they are doing... all buying blue chip stocks.

http://money.cnn.com/markets/world_markets.html

[Giancarlo]

Oh and Ramo, you don´t know anything about the situation. State of Siege was necessary. It still is ineffect and the Army technically has control of the country. The President of the Senate Puerta of the Misiones province who is a Peronist hasn´t been declared President of the country yet.

[KrazyHorse]

2nd world has a different meaning since the fall of communism

Really? Please point out where you got this information.

There is only one entry in any dictionary you care to name for the phrase "Second World", and I gave it to you. One of the reasons people get annoyed with you, BAM, is that you refuse to admit when you're demonstrably wrong (unless you make th assertion that Argentina is a member of the Communist bloc).

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


Really? Please point out where you got this information.

There is only one entry in any dictionary you care to name for the phrase "Second World", and I gave it to you. One of the reasons people get annoyed with you, BAM, is that you refuse to admit when you're demonstrably wrong (unless you make th assertion that Argentina is a member of the Communist bloc).

Alright you win... but you get the point that Argentina is not third world. I don´t even know if those terms: 1st, 2nd or 3rd world are even used anymore. I think it is either emerging (even for a country that is in economic recession or collapse) and developed.

BAM is just harassment, I usually ignore it. But sometimes it gets into thread where it is not supposed to. Like this one. It is only fact that I live in Argentina. Argentina is first world on the surface, download any of the Buenos Aires city pictures and you will see. But when you scratch into the politics and bureaucracy it is definitely third world.

[cpp]

The "Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language" gives this definition
Second World
1. The world's industrialized nations other than the US and the USSR.
2. The communist and socialist nations of the world.

[Dr. Nick]

Black Dragon:

The Argentine people are already the loser in what has happened. They continue a prcedent for government by thuggery. They failed to respect the rule of law in not using the constitutional methods for changing government.

Excuse me, this started because De La Rua instated martial law (estado de sitio) and people were scared of the military. Before the military stepped out of the barracks, the people took to the street, demanding the resignation of De La Rua for the change in power to take place. There's precedent of this, in 1962 Frondizi was deposed by the Senate when the military had an attempted coup. The President of the Chamber of Senators was handed power and the military were forced back into the barracks. In order to prevent the military abusing the state of siege and to prevent the military from staging a coup, the people took to the streets precisely so that the constitutional methods would be enacted in a smooth change of power and economic model.

This does not bode well, but then people tend to get the governments they deserve

At least we have a real democracy where the PEOPLE choose the president, not some silly college of representatives

What has happened was the fairly and democratically elected president has been made to resign practically by force. This is a black day for democracy in Latin America

What HAS happened is that a fairly and democratically elected president has been made to resign by the people who chose him. Rousseau's Social Contract in action. When the people get fed up with the leadership, a new leadership is demanded. Simple. It's AS democratic the way he was pushed out as the way he was elected.

"they have a name for the likes of you Shi: "americans, murderers of peoples". Get used to it. It is chanted from Latin America to Siberia."

Actually, after the "carnal relations" by Di Tella, and the constant uncovering of CIA papers with regards to Plan Condor, nobody here likes the Americans.

Giannie:

Democracy doesn´t function here... it turns klepocratic. Socialist pig dogs steal money by bailing out loans. It wasn´t the convertibility, it wasn´t Cavallo, it wasn´t De La Rua, it was crooks that De La Rua surrounded himself by. It was crooks in the congress. The Peronists are taking advantage of this situation.

All politicians are crooks here, Cavallo, De La Rua, they are all a bunch of crooks and idiots, but there's nothing else to choose from.

Note: Do a search on Argentina's History. From 1939-1975 there were over 30 coup attempts.

1930, 1943, 1955, 1962, 1966, 1976, three or four during Alfonsin's period... Carini exaggerating and pulling numbers out his arse again no wonder.

Ramo:

To be fair, the Argentine gov't really had very little choice - devalue the peso or default on the loan, neither of which is a very good option. But what is unacceptable is the "State of Siege" bull****! I certainly am not about to shed any tears for de la Rua.

This is true for the past year, but when Menem had the options of doing something, he did nothing. The reason why Argentina lasted this long (I believe) is because after the privatisation craze, the money collected was used to pay off debt. Default has been a demand of the IMF for a while already as Cavallo was paying the debt out of the reserve.

Now, the strongest change of policy is to change the entire economy into pesos and devalue. I hope there are enough pesos and they don't start printing bills like crazy and trigger off a mess like in 1988.

Which would be why the state of siege was declared (ending freedom of speech, assembly, etc.)?

State of siege is a constitutional recourse to maintain order, unfortunately. Well, it sure delays military action at least. In any case, this is what the people went berserk about.

red_jon:

As for Argentina, I wouldn't call any country where they execute homosexuals democratic (well, they aren't a Liberal Democracy). Liberal Democracies protect minorities, they aren't a tyranny of the majority

WTF??? BTW, the military is NOT in control. Acephaly stands, anarchy prevails. But there are no more disturbances, the country is kind of running itself on the autopilot at the moment, although the Head of the Cabinet (promoted to Minister of Economy) is still in the Casa Rosada running the place.

[Dr. Nick]

My own personal opinion on the whole situation:

The current political class needs to be eliminated from the ballots and promote the renewal of the leading groups. People want young minds, as it were, people not in the corruption cycle.

As I see it, Giancarlo's cries of "military coup! military coup!" stand worthless. The military hasn't even showed its face, not even Gendarmeria. The truth is that, after abolishing conscription, there won't be a coup, simply because the army is now a club for gentlemen and they have no one to do their dirty work like they had conscripts in all the previous coups. Secondly, after the people's response to the government yesterday, the military knows well enough that a coup would only make the people angrier and more virulent and may well trigger a real armed revolution against the government, and the lower ranks of the army would still be closer to the revolutionaries than their superior officers much like in 1917.

This is the Argentine people making their power as a society heard so that the government doesn't forget that they're working for the people and not themselves.

[faded glory]

Umm I cant believe people are saying this about Cuba

Ok first of all...Cuba's problems are because of Cuba. At age 8 Children stop getting milk rations. Each family gets 3 pounds of low quality Pork and sack of rice,wheat and beans each month. (ya some nice standerd of living!). The Average cuban makes
13.00$ a month


Oh yessssss........Paiktas you are naive. to think that thousands of Cubans each month get on dingy raft's made of crap and not worthy of even being called "Ships"! And what?To cross shark infested waters for 90 miles...through atrocouis weather and only a pitcher of water and bag of food? Just because America is the richest country on the continent? Your wrong......90% of the people who come over have been blacklisted by Castro's thugs and would have otherwised starved to death before the Government fed them.





Viva Cuba!! Hail Castro!!

[red_jon]

Originally posted by cpp
The "Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language" gives this definition
Second World
1. The world's industrialized nations other than the US and the USSR.
2. The communist and socialist nations of the world.

WTF?!

So

The UK,
Canada,
Japan,
France,
Germany,
Iceland,
Australia,
Italy,
and the rest of the EU are second world countries? That is perhaps the most RETARDED definition I have EVER heard.