State of Siege Declared for Argentina

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by red_jon


That is perhaps the most RETARDED definition I have EVER heard.

I'm sure if you look around this forum more, you'll find more reatrded things than THAT....

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by El Awrence
At least we have a real democracy where the PEOPLE choose the president, not some silly college of representatives

I wouldn't recall anyone as crooked in the US House as Duhalde or Menem.

All politicians are crooks here, Cavallo, De La Rua, they are all a bunch of crooks and idiots, but there's nothing else to choose from.

I know, I feel bad for you because of that. You got no leadership.

1930, 1943, 1955, 1962, 1966, 1976, three or four during Alfonsin's period... Carini exaggerating and pulling numbers out his arse again no wonder.

Nope. I got the number from a university site. It counts all of them. Again you are understating the chaotic nature of your own country's politics.

http://www.uni.uiuc.edu/~dstone/dis_background.html

This is true for the past year, but when Menem had the options of doing something, he did nothing. The reason why Argentina lasted this long (I believe) is because after the privatisation craze, the money collected was used to pay off debt. Default has been a demand of the IMF for a while already as Cavallo was paying the debt out of the reserve.

That is correct. The sole reason why the reserves went down.

The only reason why your country is in the gutter is because it borrowed till it was bankrupt to finance infrastructure projects that were never completed.

Now, the strongest change of policy is to change the entire economy into pesos and devalue. I hope there are enough pesos and they don't start printing bills like crazy and trigger off a mess like in 1988.

I didn't know you could pesoize your debt. If you devalue to $2 - $1 your debt would in effect double. Ouch. You would have to dollarize completely. I see that as the only option.

WTF??? BTW, the military is NOT in control. Acephaly stands, anarchy prevails. But there are no more disturbances, the country is kind of running itself on the autopilot at the moment, although the Head of the Cabinet (promoted to Minister of Economy) is still in the Casa Rosada running the place.

The Military has been cleaned of its abuses, but all these ex-generals are under house arrest and are always violating terms to their house arrest.

As I see it, Giancarlo's cries of "military coup! military coup!" stand worthless. The military hasn't even showed its face, not even Gendarmeria.

People like you made the same assumption on what happened in Spain in the 80s when Tejero launched his coup. Oh there is no one there... no one who wants to launch a coup. Then boom. It happens.

Red jon:

As for Argentina, I wouldn't call any country where they execute homosexuals democratic

My goodness.. who told you that?

[Solly]

My goodness.. who told you that?

Giancarlo`s getting worried...

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Boddington's


Giancarlo`s getting worried...

And? Some people get the wrong impression about many countries.

[Dr. Nick]

Pesifying means to turn your debts from dollars into pesos while convertibility stands and THEN devaluating. That way the debt remains the same.

And, the military's only excuse to launch a coup is while De La Rua is in power. The reason why the people poured into the street last thursday was to prevent the military from doing anything. If the people could depose De La Rua, the proper constitutional procedures would take place and the military would no longer have a reason to do anything.

And no one in the army wants to have anything to do with the likes of Videla, Massera, Astiz and his fellows, so your arguments are unfounded. Lastly, who is going to do the job for them, now that there's no conscription, eh?

And, there have NOT been 30 coup attempts, unless they're counting the changes of president within a de facto period, which doesn;t count in the first place.

[Shi Huangdi]

"who cares about GDP when in other countries than Cuba it is concentrated in the hands of the few rich when other people are starving?"

I am sure in Cuba that Castro, the Communist Party Elite, Top Military Officers, and the upper-level bureaucracy have the same quality of life as the average poor person.

"But what is unacceptable is the "State of Siege" bull****!"

It's unacceptable to take temporary measures to put down an insurrection? Lincoln also suspended the Writ of Habeas Corpus during the Civil War. It's not like there was a plan of a permanent police state as exists in Cuba.

", considering the exceptional health care and education services the Cuban state provides,"

First off, Education has little practical value in Cuba as there is little you can do with it(unless you manage to migrate, that is). As far as health care, there is more to life than that, and anyway as an anarchist you should agree with me that health care is not the responsibilty of the state.

"Which would be why the state of siege was declared (ending freedom of speech, assembly, etc.)? "

Because riots had braken out and it was neccesary to restore order with temporary measures.

"Posted pages from the 2000 UN report on living conditions throughout Latin America that demonstrated Cubans on average enjoyed a standard of living higher than all but possibly 2 or 3 others a few months ago."

But how do you judge something that is this that subjective? The UN is a decidedly leftist organization, which routinely criticizes US and Israeli foreign policy. GDP per Capita, OTOH is a pretyt objective statistic in comparison. As is net-migration rates.

But in any case, economics is irrelevant for Cuba, IMO. Even if Cuba managed to produce a higher standard of living then the US itself, it's being a dictatorship and it's horrible stance on civil liberties would make the regine evil. It's really interesting to see anarchists defend totaltarian regimes in arguments.

"Not just that, (though the US IS an important country to trade with), also they managed to cope with the fall of the Soviet Union."

Not very well, as is seen with their pathetic GDP per cap.


"The US trade embargos against Cuba have been condemned by the UN (which of course the US ignores)."

If they want to trade with us they shouldn't nationalize our companies.

And red_jon, homosexuality has precisely zero to do with the recent riots. Once again, you fail to adress the issue at hand. The most you can do is bring up points someone else has already brought up, about the US embargo and loss of Soviet aid. Pitiful.

"There's precedent of this, in 1962 Frondizi was deposed by the Senate when the military had an attempted coup."

Then have it done by the Constitutional method and let the Senate dispose him, not rioters.

"What HAS happened is that a fairly and democratically elected president has been made to resign by the people who chose him."

Has it been done by a majority vote? The proper way to get rid of a bad president is through votes, or under certain circumstances removal by the legislature. People rising up in violence and looting stores is NOT a democratic measure and is not how governments should be decided.

"The military hasn't even showed its face, not even Gendarmeria."

And hopefully it won't if the Peronists govern responsibly. We'll see what happens. But if they mess up the economy and the country falls into chaos, it would not bode well.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
"who cares about GDP when in other countries than Cuba it is concentrated in the hands of the few rich when other people are starving?"

I am sure in Cuba that Castro, the Communist Party Elite, Top Military Officers, and the upper-level bureaucracy have the same quality of life as the average poor person.

Bush has a ****load of money. Many americans do not even have medical care. Your point?

First off, Education has little practical value in Cuba as there is little you can do with it(unless you manage to migrate, that is). As far as health care, there is more to life than that, and anyway as an anarchist you should agree with me that health care is not the responsibilty of the state.

Education is a tool in every society. Health care is the obligation of the state and is a very important factor in determining quality of life. What would you say to a person who hasn't the money to undergo a life threaetening surgery in the US?

But how do you judge something that is this that subjective? The UN is a decidedly leftist organization, which routinely criticizes US and Israeli foreign policy.

Need I say more? If you do not trust it get out of it.

GDP per Capita, OTOH is a pretyt objective statistic in comparison. As is net-migration rates.

Of course not. Numbers is the easiest way to lie.

But in any case, economics is irrelevant for Cuba, IMO. Even if Cuba managed to produce a higher standard of living then the US itself, it's being a dictatorship and it's horrible stance on civil liberties would make the regine evil. It's really interesting to see anarchists defend totaltarian regimes in arguments.

Again you don;t know what you are talking about.

Not very well, as is seen with their pathetic GDP per cap.

The US embargo in CUBA is not respected by anyone else than the US and you should be punished for inflicting misery on people just because you don't like them and their politics. (don;t give me any bull about nuclear missile crisis etc you tried to invade them before)

Has it been done by a majority vote? The proper way to get rid of a bad president is through votes, or under certain circumstances removal by the legislature. People rising up in violence and looting stores is NOT a democratic measure and is not how governments should be decided.

Every mass uprising of the people is by default legal and democratic.

And hopefully it won't if the Peronists govern responsibly. We'll see what happens. But if they mess up the economy and the country falls into chaos, it would not bode well.

Too bad Argentina isn't Turkey. If it was IMF would have granted her the loan as a reward for being such a helpful client in the war against Afganistan despite its regime.

[Ramo]

It's unacceptable to take temporary measures to put down an insurrection?

Yes! There is absolutely no reason for basic civil liberties, such as freedom of speech, to be abridged. De la Rua was a tyrant and deserved to be booted out of office.

Lincoln also suspended the Writ of Habeas Corpus during the Civil War

And he used the power to lock up everyone who disagreed with him!

Because riots had braken out and it was neccesary to restore order with temporary measures.

Now is taking away freedom of speech "necessary to restore order." Total bullcrap!

It's not like there was a plan of a permanent police state as exists in Cuba.

Pure speculation.

First off, Education has little practical value in Cuba as there is little you can do with it

Bull****. Learning is what life is about!

As far as health care, there is more to life than that

And there's no life without adequete health care.

and anyway as an anarchist you should agree with me that health care is not the responsibilty of the state.

That's irrelevent to the argument. The point is that the quality of life for the average Cuban is undoubtedly significantly better than the quality of life for the average Latin American.

Even if Cuba managed to produce a higher standard of living then the US itself, it's being a dictatorship and it's horrible stance on civil liberties would make the regine evil.

Cuba's stance on civil liberties isn't any worse than most Latin American countries, and in fact is much better than a lot of them (i.e. Colombia). But yes, Castro's government is fairly ****ed up.

It's really interesting to see anarchists defend totaltarian regimes in arguments.

KrazyHorse is not an anarchist. And I'm defending the position that the Cuban quality of life is better than the rest of Latin America, not Castro's regime.

It's also really interesting to see a person who supposedly supports civil liberties defend de la Rua's gov't.

If they want to trade with us they shouldn't nationalize our companies.

Oh come on, Bautista was practically giving away Cuban property to American businesses. Much of what was nationalized wasn't legitimately owned in the first place.

Has it been done by a majority vote?

There was no freedom of speech. No freedom of assembly. Did you honestly expect a fair election?!

but when Menem had the options of doing something, he did nothing.

Can you elaborate? I haven't heard anything of this.

State of siege is a constitutional recourse to maintain order, unfortunately. Well, it sure delays military action at least. In any case, this is what the people went berserk about.

I agree. I was only addressing the assertion that booting out de la Rua was morally illegitimate.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by El Awrence
Pesifying means to turn your debts from dollars into pesos while convertibility stands and THEN devaluating. That way the debt remains the same.

That is not an option at this time. It would only cause a horribly inflationary period like the one your country felt in the 80s.

And, the military's only excuse to launch a coup is while De La Rua is in power. The reason why the people poured into the street last thursday was to prevent the military from doing anything. If the people could depose De La Rua, the proper constitutional procedures would take place and the military would no longer have a reason to do anything.

I know this Active Army General nearby, living near by, who is pretty ticked off about how things are going in this country.

And no one in the army wants to have anything to do with the likes of Videla, Massera, Astiz and his fellows, so your arguments are unfounded. Lastly, who is going to do the job for them, now that there's no conscription, eh?

Your army has 40,000 Regulars. That seems enough to do the job for a while when a military dictatorship would slap on conscription again.

And, there have NOT been 30 coup attempts, unless they're counting the changes of president within a de facto period, which doesn;t count in the first place.

Maybe you are right. It was probably talking about failed coups aswell as successful ones.

[Dr. Nick]

Then have it done by the Constitutional method and let the Senate dispose him, not rioters.

Which has happened, like in 1962. President resigns, Senate takes over.

Has it been done by a majority vote? The proper way to get rid of a bad president is through votes, or under certain circumstances removal by the legislature. People rising up in violence and looting stores is NOT a democratic measure and is not how governments should be decided.

We don't need a majority vote to know as a society that we want him done away with. The reason why he resigned was because after enacting state of siege practically the entire population of the city of Buenos Aires and surrounding suburbs took to the streets to demand his resignation.

If the people hadn't deposed him quick, the military would have stepped in. The military now longer have a reason to step in, and the Constitutional process has been safeguarded by the people once again.

Can you elaborate? I haven't heard anything of this.

After privatising everything, Menem used that money to fill his pockets and pay off the debt and keep Argentina on what a few claimed was the "artificial respirator" for several years. Menem and Cavallo saw convertibility as an ends, not a means, which was their error. Convertibility is a path to solve the outlying problems of the country, it is not the solution, but they saw it as such. Basically because it benefited them in all they needed of it.

Your army has 40,000 Regulars. That seems enough to do the job for a while when a military dictatorship would slap on conscription again.

Most of which have suffered severe pay slashes and are nearer to the protestors than their superior officers...

[KrazyHorse]

Oh, and for those who think that I support Castro's continued government of Cuba: I don't, unless he makes it a policy to restore what I would consider full civil liberties to the populace and to gain a freely given mandate from the people of the island. As Ramo mentioned, though, civil liberties in Cuba are light-years ahead of what they are in, say, the PRC. Dissenting newspapers are allowed to be published with only mild risks. Most political sentences are on the order of 1-5 years and are usually not repeated. People don't "disappear" as they do in many other Latin American countries not currently undergoing trade embargoes, etc.

[Giancarlo]

Krazyhorse, all other countries in Latin America grant more freedom of speech and expression than Cuba basically because there are no more military juntas around anymore. Even Venezuela and Peru grant more freedom than Cuba.

Most of which have suffered severe pay slashes and are nearer to the protestors than their superior officers...

I think that gives them a perfect reason to rebel, and they might get their superior officers to help them.

[Jules]

IMF Rule Shatters in Argentina;
Now for the General Welfare?
by Cynthia R. Rush

It is assured that as of Dec. 20, governments of Ibero-America, not to mention London, Wall Street, and the International Monetary Fund, are in a state of panic. The government of Argentina, that erstwhile pillar of neo-liberalism, with a real foreign debt of over $220 billion, has crumbled before their eyes, just as 2004 Democratic Presidential pre-candidate Lyndon LaRouche and this magazine said it would, if IMF policy were continued. On Dec. 21, LaRouche described six actions Argentina must now take.

In the 24 hours between Dec. 19 and 20, first the hated Finance Minister Domingo Cavallo was ousted, by a mass outpouring of citizens who would tolerate no more of the free-market savagery he learned at Harvard; then, the equally despised President Fernando de la Rúa and his cabinet were forced to resign after opposition Peronists refused the President's offer to form a "national unity" government, based on the same neo-liberal model.

The composition of the new government is as yet undetermined. After he resigned, de la Rúa flew off into the night in a helicopter, and the Senate President, Peronist Ramón Puerta, was named as the country's provisional President, as next in the line of succession. Following procedures outlined in the Constitution, a special Legislative Assembly will meet on Dec. 21 to elect de la Rúa's permanent successor, or call new elections. The Peronists, who control both houses of Congress, and run 14 provinces, will be the dominant political force in any new government.

Banker Chrystian Colombo, who served as de la Rú's chief of cabinet, is now the acting Finance Minister. Cavallo, who reportedly transferred his U.S. bank accounts to London in preparation for fleeing the country, has now been prohibited from leaving by three federal judges, pending investigation into illegal arms trafficking which occurred in the early 1990s, when he served then-President Carlos Menem as Finance Minister.

The General Welfare
Despite hysterical media blather about there being "no Argentine contagion," more lucid minds know that this country's breakdown mirrors that of the international financial system, and that the extensive Argentine exposure of U.S. and European banks and companies—Spain is now in dire straits because of its sizable holdings in Argentina—could bring down the whole shebang. Brazil's currency has begun to collapse, and there are fears that this economic giant, together with Mexico, and perhaps equally vulnerable nations like Poland and the Czech Republic, could follow Argentina into the abyss.

These dramatic events place on the table for immediate consideration Lyndon LaRouche's New Bretton Woods and Eurasian Land Bridge proposals, as well as the necessity of freeing from jail the one Argentine patriot capable of rallying his countrymen to save the nation: former Army Colonel and Malvinas War hero, Mohamed Alí Seineldín. Decimated by years of budget cuts, the Army itself is incapable of acting. But Seineldín is admired both inside Argentina, and in Ibero-America for his unflinching defense of national sovereignty. Seineldín has also publicly endorsed Lyndon LaRouche's call for a New Bretton Woods financial reorganization of the bankrupt world sytem, as the necessary policy for Argentina.

In remarks made Dec. 20 on the Argentine developments, LaRouche emphasized that, now that the IMF's genocidal model is dead, "the only legitimate function of government is the general welfare of the people and their posterity." That must be Argentina's number-one priority. LaRouche had earlier proposed that Seineldín be named as Argentina's debt negotiator, as the only leader capable of defending the national interest against the IMF and related vultures.

What these tumultuous events mean for the payment of Argentina's $220 billion foreign debt, is unknown. What is clear is that there will be a brawl to determine the nature of the next government. A currency devaluation, abandoning the dollar-peso peg of the last decade, is a foregone conclusion, probably followed by an official default, and perhaps dollarization.

Several Peronist leaders have publicly addressed the need to scrap the IMF model, and return Argentina to a path of industrial development. Some have specifically said that debt payment must be subordinate to investing in development and caring for the population. But whether they will dare to make a clean break with the IMF, remains a question mark. Nor is there any doubt that the international financial establishment will do everything possible to insure that Argentina not break from the genocidal policies which brought it to this crisis point. Anglo-American media are warning of the dangers of returning to "protectionism." In a Dec. 20 press conference, IMF spokesman Thomas Dawson denied that IMF policies had anything to do with causing the Argentine upheaval. "As we've made clear, we were not requesting any specific policy measures," he lied. The same day, White House press spokesman Ari Fleisher underscored that President Bush "would like to see Argentina working with the IMF to be able to work through this situation in ways that lead to sustainable economic growth."

The IMF Model Is Dead
The astonishing rapidity with which Argentina's government crumbled, demonstrates the fragility of the IMF's model. Dec. 19 began with mob violence, as starving citizens, beaten down by Cavallo's fanatical imposition of ever deeper austerity, and egged on by provocatuers and pro-terrorist leftists, raided supermarkets and other shops in seven provinces, carrying away food and other goods, while damning both Cavallo and de la Rúa. When the violence threatened to spill over into the federal capital, Buenos Aires, de la Rúa declared a state of siege, and went on national television that evening to ask for "patience" and charge that "enemies of the Republic" were behind the violence.

By that time, the protest began to take on a different character altogether. As the pathetic President spoke, middle class residents of the capital began to drown out his words with a "pots and pans" protest, and took to the streets demanding that both Cavallo and de la Rúa leave. Men, women, and children filled the city's plazas, 10,000 in front of the Congress, some thousands in front of Cavallo's house, and 20,000 or more at the historic Plaza de Mayo, in front of the Presidential palace, the Casa Rosada. There were no signs or banners—only the Argentine flag, symbolic of a national upsurge. EIR's Argentine correspondent Gerardo Terán characterizes the patriotic outpouring, which was absolutely spontaneous, as similar to the one which occurred on April 2, 1982 after Argentina retook the Malvinas Islands from Great Britain.

When word of Cavallo's resignation spread among those in the Plaza de Mayo, they began to sing the national anthem.

Under these conditions, any attempt to continue with the IMF's model could mean handing the country over to the narco-terrorist coalition, the São Paulo Forum, whose affiliates have found fertile ground for organizing jacobin violence in Argentina, because of the enormous popular rage over Cavallo's destruction of living standards and jobs, in order to pay the foreign debt. The violence of Dec. 19 and 20 was just a foretaste of what could be expected, were the next government to attempt to continue Cavallo's program. The riots and looting have already claimed 25 lives, with hundreds more hurt and over 2,000 arrested. On Dec. 21, hard-core terrorist figures are continuing to lead violent actions, claiming to speak for "the people."

Nor is the issue just Argentina. As the world monetary system disintegrates at accelerating speed, institutional chaos is spreading across Ibero-America. The deterioration is such, that former U.S. President George H.W. Bush's network of sleazy ex-Presidents is being dredged up as future "saviors" of their respective countries. Carlos Andrés Pérez is presenting himself as the alternative to the São Paulo Forum's crazed Venezuelan President, Hugo Chávez; Alan Garcí is in the wings as recently installed Peruvian President Alejandro Toledo totters in incompetency; and Carlos Menem in Argentina is trying to stage a political comeback. The way things are going in Mexico, former President Carlos Salinas de Gortari might be expected to show his face there soon.

Free Seineldín
Argentina can't tolerate another Carlos Menem. IMF policy has reigned here since 1990. Cavallo's mad determination, since taking office last March, to service an unpayable foreign debt by imposing ever deeper austerity, turned the country into a killing field. His insane "zero deficit" plan, which subordinated all economic activity to debt payment, gouged wages and pensions, cut funding to provincial governments and vital public services. Month after month, as tax revenues plummeted, Cavallo announced deeper budget cuts, culminating in the 2002 budget, slashed by almost 20%, as ordered by the IMF.

The only way he was able to come up with money to make even a partial debt payment, such as the one on Dec. 14, was by stealing from the population, first restricting cash withdrawals from banks and imposing partial exchange controls on Dec. 1, and then, seizing private pension funds, ordering them to liquidate their term deposits in banks, and hand the cash over to the government. Even with this theft, Cavallo could only cough up $700 million of $980 million owed by Dec. 14; only half of that was in cash; he told the IMF it would have to wait until later for the other $180 million.

Meanwhile, the country has seen its once excellent health-care system disintegrate, as funding for public hospitals is cut to shreds, and the state agency in charge of retirees' health care, PAMI, is no longer able to fund nursing homes and clinics falling under its purview. Elderly who relied on PAMI are being thrown into the streets. Unemployment hovers close to 20%—one in five workers are out of a job—and Argentines, who could at least always be assured of a good meal, are now starving.

Now, more than ever, it is imperative that former Colonel Seineldín be released from prison. Pressure for this is building. In mid-November, Army Chief of Staff Gen. Ricardo Brinzoni took the unprecedented step of visiting Seineldín in jail, where he has been for 11 years on charges stemming from the Dec. 3, 1990 uprising against the Army high command. The significance of this act wasn't lost on the government. Seineldín has already requested he be released, and on Dec. 14, three thousand citizens marched from the Obelisk in downtown Buenos Aires, to the Casa Rosada, to demand the war hero's freedom. The march was led by Mrs. Marta Labeau de Seineldín, who, upon reaching the Presidential palace, delivered a letter to President de la Rúa, requesting her husband's release from prison. One of the officers who had participating in the 1990 uprising, told EIR that the march was the beginning of the movement that would lead to Seineldín's release.

[Jules]

LaRouche: What Argentina Must Do Now

Dec. 21, 2001 (EIRNS)—Calling the collapse of Cavallo, De la Rúa, and the whole IMF showcase policy in Argentina "a Christmas present for all decent people internationally," Presidential pre-candidate Lyndon LaRouche outlined six steps Argentina now should take:

1. Argentina must immediately decouple the peso from the U.S. dollar. There can be neither dollarization nor devaluation. Each would be horribly destructive.

2. This action of decoupling should be combined with the immediate implementation of currency and capital controls, of the 1950s style of measures that were the proven effective methods for protecting national currencies.

3. Argentina must also immediately adopt the proven, dirigist measures to expand productive investment in industry and farming, with emphasis on medium-sized industrialized firms, as LaRouche has proposed many times, and was earlier the core of the proposals of FDR and Lautenbach, in dealing with similar crises.

4. There must be an immediate freeze on all foreign debt obligations.

5. The new Argentine government must initiate criminal proceedings against ex-Presidents Menem and De la Rúa, and Cavallo, for having systematically lied to the Argentine people in hiding the de facto bankruptcy of the country, for the past ten years, and who, in lying to their own people, in criminal fashion, further increased Argentina's foreign debt and systematically and corruptly sold out Argentina's most productive and vital national assets. These criminal proceedings must also include the corrupt foreign accomplices, who abetted in driving up the debt and selling off the national assets—no matter where they are, in the private banking sector, in government, or in international lending agencies.

6. In dealing with foreign creditors and foreign powers, Argentina must recognize that its weakness is its strength. Argentina is merely a symptom of the current state of the global financial system. Therefore, whoever is pushing Argentina should realize that Argentina has the means to set in motion a process which will accelerate the true state of the bankruptcy of its foreign creditors—Spain, Italy, Germany, France, the United States and Japan. Argentina can reveal what is the true financial conditions of those countries and the global system.

[Dr. Nick]

They crazy? Seineldin is despised by everyone and he's in jail for taking up arms against the government, he should stay there for life.