Next US' targets?

[Saint Marcus]

Addition: Navy ships sailing under the Belgian flag take orders from the Dutch Admirality as part of an bi-lateral agreement.

Wielingen class light ASW frigates (2,283 tons, 1978): 3

This makes the balance:

8 coastal subs
15 frigates
1 VSTOL carrier

VS

4 ocean-going subs
17 frigates
1 destroyer

[Solly]

MarkL has just done a Colon.

[Giancarlo]

Fine, with that settled the Spanish Navy can kick Holland's ass.

[Saint Marcus]

Now who's the one not knowing anything about military equipment? Half the Spanish navy is 20 years old and has no ocean going submarines! So outside the coast of Spain the Armada only has 1 very small carrier and 15 frigates, of which most are older than 20 years old.

15 frigates + 1 small carrier VS 17 frigates, 4 submarines, 1 destroyer.

Good odds! Especcially since only harriers and helicopters can fly from the carrier, and only in small numbers. So is one carrier better than 2 extra frigates, 4 submarines, and 1 destroyer? Well, yes if it was a Nimitz class carrier weighing 100,000 tons. But this is a 16,000 ton carrier, with no fancy tomcats and hornets, just a few harriers. And considering Holland's fleet is a lot more modern than Spain's, I think it's pretty obvious Holland has a stronger navy.

[Ted Striker]

stats



I guess that is MarkL

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Mark L
Now who's the one not knowing anything about military equipment? Half the Spanish navy is 20 years old and has no ocean going submarines! So outside the coast of Spain the Armada only has 1 very small carrier and 15 frigates, of which most are older than 20 years old.

15 frigates + 1 small carrier VS 17 frigates, 4 submarines, 1 destroyer.

Good odds! Especcially since only harriers and helicopters can fly from the carrier, and only in small numbers. So is one carrier better than 2 extra frigates, 4 submarines, and 1 destroyer? Well, yes if it was a Nimitz class carrier weighing 100,000 tons. But this is a 16,000 ton carrier, with no fancy tomcats and hornets, just a few harriers. And considering Holland's fleet is a lot more modern than Spain's, I think it's pretty obvious Holland has a stronger navy.

And it is like Hollands miniscule navy can hold of US Perry Class Ships? Those Subs are capable to go out to sea, coastal or not.

We still kick your ass.

[Saint Marcus]

Hollands miniscule navy

Which is bigger in size than Spain's

And it is like Hollands miniscule navy can hold of US Perry Class Ships?

The indefeatable Perry class frigates. Just cause they are American doesn't mean nothing can beat them. And they aren't that special really. Sure they're good, but so are a lot of frigate classes. They don't stand far above others, if at all.

Those Subs are capable to go out to sea, coastal or not.

If they are, why are they called coastal? Dutch subs are stationed all over the world, and I'm expecting all Spanish subs to be in Spanish territorial waters. Why? Cause they're coastal subs, used along Spanish coasts. Duh.

We still kick your ass.

with what? Only 2 Spanish ships are less than 10 years old, compared to 12 Dutch ships. In short, Spain's navy is antiquated, and certainly no match for a modern navy.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Mark L


Which is bigger in size than Spain's

Which is not.

The indefeatable Perry class frigates. Just cause they are American doesn't mean nothing can beat them. And they aren't that special really. Sure they're good, but so are a lot of frigate classes. They don't stand far above others, if at all.

Traditionally, American Ships are better armed. Hell, they arm those Israelis FACs, which are armed to the teeth.

If they are, why are they called coastal? Dutch subs are stationed all over the world, and I'm expecting all Spanish subs to be in Spanish territorial waters. Why? Cause they're coastal subs, used along Spanish coasts. Duh.

So what? We got S-80s coming out soon.

with what? Only 2 Spanish ships are less than 10 years old, compared to 12 Dutch ships. In short, Spain's navy is antiquated, and certainly no match for a modern navy.

Wrong, again. There are way more than 2 Ships that are less than ten years old. And late 80s era ships are generally in good condition in most navies. In short, you are ****ed up by calling Spain's navy antiquated when it is not. We have four AEGIS Destroyers on the way (and I heard the Spanish Navy has considered four more), so you are quite screwed.

As for the Airforce, we beat you. We got about 95 F-18 Hornets, 66 Mirage F1s (Which are really good French Aircraft), and 87 Typhoons on order. Our Army beats you three to one.

[Solly]

You'd both lose if you went to war.

[Saint Marcus]

Which is not.

It's the same size, so if Holland's is small, than so is Spain's

Traditionally, American Ships are better armed.

Yes, tradtionally. Back in WW2.

Though American carriers kick ass nowadays, but the rest of their ships aren't vastly superior to ships designed by other countries.

We got S-80s coming out soon.

Yes. In 2005. And only 1, the rest will come after that. So for the next 4 years Spain is stuck with some small coastal subs

Wrong, again. There are way more than 2 Ships that are less than ten years old.

Check your own sites. Only 2 Perry class ships are build after 1991, the rest is older. So the Spanish navy only has 2 combat ships less than 10 years old.

We have four AEGIS Destroyers on the way (and I heard the Spanish Navy has considered four more), so you are quite screwed.

De Seven Provincien Class is without any doubt just as capable as Spain's Alvaro de Bazan class. So still Spain doesn't get an edge over Holland navy wise.

We got about 95 F-18 Hornets

We got 129 F-16 Falcons. Not that big a difference.

66 Mirage F1s (Which are really good French Aircraft)

The Mirage F1 huh? wow. A plane designed in 1966. A plane made obsolete by the Mirage 2000 and the Rafale. Wow.


You say you know more about military equipment than me, yet you say: Coastal subs aren't coastal. More than 2 Spanish warships are younger than 10 years old. The F1 is a really good aircraft.
while militaty experts say: Coastal subs are made for coastal ops. Spain has only 2 warships less than 10 years old. The F1 is outdated.

Who is right? Giani, or the experts from the very sites giani posts?

and 87 Typhoons on order

So? They aren't there yet, and Holland will order the JSF.

Our Army beats you three to one.

Duh. Spain is a lot bigger than Holland! I would be surprised if Spain managed to have a smaller army. lol

You'd both lose if you went to war.

There won't be a war ever. The war has already been fought and won. Spain admitted defeat in 1648, which was the end of the only war between Holland and Spain which lasted for 80 years (1568 to 1648). Holland won! There giani! We defeated Spain! Ha!

[Giancarlo]

The only reason Spain lost against Holland is because of Britain.

We got 129 F-16 Falcons. Not that big a difference.

Our Airforce is still more powerful and more capable.

Who is right? Giani, or the experts from the very sites giani posts?

**** YOU! You know I am posting straight from those sites.

We are getting the first shipments of Typhoon on 2002. And did I mention F-16A/Bs are old? Yes, they are old.

The Mirage F1 was made in 1966.... yes that is fine. The F-16A, the main one in your airforce was made in 1975. So what? They both are old.

Holland won! There giani! We defeated Spain!

Britain had something to do with this you **** face.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
The Spanish Armed Forces
(My turn, note: We really don't need a large Army, our Navy and Airforce are our good points. The Library of Congress said the Spanish Navy is the second largest in total size in Europe, after Britain. The Civil Guard has 75,000, seperate from the Police)

If you have all those ships, then why do you keep trying to invade Canada with fishing boats? We're getting tired of confiscating them.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


If you have all those ships, then why do you keep trying to invade Canada with fishing boats? We're getting tired of confiscating them.

We need to decomission some of them, so hell... invade the Canadians with them.

[Giancarlo]

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/mirage-f1.htm

Hey, Marky, I hate to break this to you but the first flight of the Mirage F1 is 1981. Maybe it was designed in 1966, but so was the F-16.

[Saint Marcus]

The only reason Spain lost against Holland is because of Britain.

Funny, since the only country aiding Holland was Pruisia, and they did get their asses kicked by the Spanish. Britain certainly wasn't a Dutch ally, and had more to worry about than affairs in Holland. We kicked your ass!

Hey, Marky, I hate to break this to you but the first flight of the Mirage F1 is 1981. Maybe it was designed in 1966, but so was the F-16.

From your own link: "The Mirage F-1 prototype made its maiden flight with René Bigand at the controls, 23rd December 1966, at Melun-Villaroche (the Seine-et-Marne region of France). Commissioned by the French Air Force in 1973, more than 700 Mirage F-1's have been sold to some 11 countries. The Dassault Mirage F-1C was the standard French fighter before Mirage 2000 entered service in the air force in 1984. "

Read kiddo. It says: F1, first flight: 1966, commissioned: 1973. The Mirage 2000 entered service in 1984, 11 years after the F1.

You clearly understand jack about military equipment! Your own link even speaks against you! LOL

The Library of Congress said the Spanish Navy is the second largest in total size in Europe, after Britain.

Oh really? More of your facts? Care to do the maths? Let me take you through it, so that even you would understand.

France: 55 warships
Carriers: 1
Cruisers: 1
Destroyers: 4
Frigates: 29
Corvettes: 10
Nuclear subs: 10

Britain: 51 warships
VSTOL Carriers: 3
Destroyers: 11
Frigates: 21
Nuclear subs: 16

Italy: 37 warships
VSTOL Carriers: 1
Cruisers: 1
Destroyers: 4
Frigates: 16
Corvettes: 8
Coastal subs: 7

Greece: 27 warships
Destroyers: 4
Frigates: 14
Coastal subs: 9

Germany: 26 warships
Destroyers: 2
Frigates: 12
Coastal subs: 12

Spain: 24 warships
VSTOL Carriers: 1
Frigates: 15
Coastal subs: 8

Netherlands: 20 warships
Destroyers: 1
Frigates: 15
Submarines: 4


So why is Spain the second biggest? France and Italy clearly have much larger navies. And Spain doesn't seem much/any stronger/bigger than Greece, Germany or Holland.


Some years ago the Dutch Royal Navy and the British Royal Navy had a mock battle in the North Sea. We lost of course. So how about a mock battle somewhere in the Atlantic?

Holland:
1 Destroyer
15 Frigates
4 Submarines

Spain:
1 VSTOL Carrier
15 Frigates

Germany:
2 Destroyers
12 Frigates

Greece:
4 Destroyers
14 Frigates


If you want we can include Italy and France, since according to you their navies are smaller than Spain's. If you just look at it stats wise the Greeks have the upper hand. But Greece' navy, like Spain's, is old and antiquated. Germany's navy is somewhat more modern, but most of their new ship designs are not in service yet (and therefor not included here). Holland does have a more modern navy, and it posseses 4 ocean going subs that the others don't have (yet). All have 12 frigates. On top of that, Holland has: 1 destroyer, 3 frigates, 4 submarines. Germany has 2 destroyers. Greece has 4 destroyeres, 2 frigates. Spain has 1 small carrier, 3 frigates.

I frankly don't see how Spain could beat Holland in a bluewater mock battle. And I certainly don't see how on Earth Spain can have a bigger navy than France. That's clearly bull****. France' carrier carries Rafales instead of Harriers, and it's twice as big. Furthermore, France has 4 destroyers, 1 cruiser and twice as many frigates as spain. Not to mention the fact that France has 10 nuclear subs while Spain only has 8 small coastal subs.