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  • #61
    Originally posted by Mark L
    And what does that have to do with the sites you posted? Sure there is information on those tanks there, but not how many there are in ethiopia.
    There are 500 Tanks in Ethiopia operating at this time. That is one estimate I have heard from someone else here.

    And where on those sites of yours can you find the maintainance cost of old soviet style tanks?
    It doesn't ****head, this is common sense. It costs more to maintain older equipiment.
    For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

    Comment

    • #62
      I know but its regular army, not possible conscripts, is not the largest. Actually, the Nigerian Army could be the largest... if it was at war... by far, if it called up all of its men to duty. No country does that because it could cause collapse though. You don't see China calling up 140 million men for duty, unless it is at war and it would impossible to arm them all.
      I wasn't talking about a regular army or a peacetime army. As it stands, Ethiopia has a massive army. Sure it isn't a well armed, well trained, well paid army, but an army no less. Sure it would be a lot smaller if the region was stable, but it isn't. So Ethiopia has the biggest army cause of all the wars and proxy-wars in the region.
      Quod Me Nutrit Me Destruit

      Comment

      • #63
        Originally posted by Mark L


        I wasn't talking about a regular army or a peacetime army. As it stands, Ethiopia has a massive army. Sure it isn't a well armed, well trained, well paid army, but an army no less. Sure it would be a lot smaller if the region was stable, but it isn't. So Ethiopia has the biggest army cause of all the wars and proxy-wars in the region.
        I think your sources are adding up the Government Militia along with the Regular Army. The Militia is government runned but is equipped with rapidly aging equipiment.
        For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

        Comment

        • #64
          of course it is. but it does make the total number of armed forces rather high in ethiopia, and certainly higher than other african nations. that doesn't say anything about it's strenght of course.
          Quod Me Nutrit Me Destruit

          Comment

          • #65
            Netherlands vs. Ethiopia

            Winner: Ethiopia

            We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

            Comment

            • #66
              I know that if Holland would try to invade Ethiopia that we would lose. That much is obvious.
              Quod Me Nutrit Me Destruit

              Comment

              • #67


                Okay, whoever took the REAL MarkL and put this imposter in here, please put him back.
                We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

                Comment

                • #68
                  How on Earth do you expect Holland to invade Ethiopia? We simply don't have enough troops for that.
                  Quod Me Nutrit Me Destruit

                  Comment

                  • #69
                    Alright who is this guy?

                    Somebody is playing a really lame joke by giving MarkL's password out.
                    We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

                    Comment

                    • #70
                      Dutch military:

                      Navy:

                      Sailors+Marines: 17,000
                      Civilians: ??
                      Command & air destroyer: 1+4 ordered
                      Air defense frigate: 2
                      Frigate: 10
                      Submarines: 4
                      Amphibious transport: 1+1 ordered
                      Minehunter: 15
                      Replenishment ship: 2
                      Survey ship: 3
                      Station tender: 1 (converted floating oilrig)
                      Lynx helicopters: 21
                      Orian recon aircraft: 13
                      Armored vehicles, Patria: 20
                      Other vehicles: ??

                      Airforce:

                      F-16A/B, int/strike/recon/trng: 129
                      PC-7 Turbo-Trainer, trng: 13
                      DC-10-30 (KDC-10), tanker/trans: 2
                      C-130H-30, trans: 2
                      Fokker 60, trans: 4
                      Fokker 50, pass/trans: 2
                      F27 Maritime, MR/SAR: 2
                      BO 105CB/DB, AOP/liaison: 27
                      Alouette III, AOP/liaison: 9
                      AB 412SP, SAR: 3
                      CH-47C Chinook, trans: 7
                      CH-47D Chinook, trans: 6
                      As 532 Cougar Mk2, trans: 17
                      AH-64A, attack/scout: 12
                      AH-64D, attack/scout: 30
                      Gulfstreame IV, trans: 1
                      Enlisted personel: 11,500
                      Civilians: 1700

                      Army:

                      Soldiers: 24,000
                      Civilians: 9,000
                      Leopard 2NL, Main battle tank: 180
                      Light tanks: 1600
                      Airmobile special vehicles: 220
                      120mm mortars: 125
                      MLRS: 22
                      M109, Howitzer: 126
                      Intel systems: 4
                      Anti-air tanks: 60
                      Radar+anti-air systems: 30

                      Marechaussee (military border police):

                      Enlisted personel: 5000
                      Civilians: 250

                      Coastguard:

                      Enlisted personel: ??
                      Civilians: ??
                      Ships: ??


                      Total number of people working for defense: 54,500 enlisted, 20,000 civilians.
                      Quod Me Nutrit Me Destruit

                      Comment

                      • #71
                        The Spanish Armed Forces
                        (My turn, note: We really don't need a large Army, our Navy and Airforce are our good points. The Library of Congress said the Spanish Navy is the second largest in total size in Europe, after Britain. The Civil Guard has 75,000, seperate from the Police)

                        Spanish Army:
                        Enlisted: 100,000
                        Equipiment: 700 American M-60 Tanks, 300 Leopard 2 Tanks, 300 AMX-30 French Tanks, 1,200 M-113s as well as AML-60s and AML-90s, 1,200 BMRs IFVs

                        Army Aviavtion - 180 Helicopters (40 of which are equipped with HOT Antitank Missiles)

                        Spanish Legions:
                        Enlisted: 6,500
                        Equipiment: Mostly BMRs IFVs

                        Spanish Airforce

                        Enlistment: 29,100

                        Eurofighter EF 2000 - 87 (on order) int/attack
                        EF-18A/B Hornet - 83/12 int/attack/trng
                        RF-4C Phantom - 14 recon
                        Mirage F1C/E/B - 66 int/attack/trng
                        SF-5B/SRF-5A - 22/2 FGA/trng/recon
                        P-3A/B Orion - 2/5 MR/ASW
                        F-27 400MPA - 3 SAR/coast patrol
                        B 707- 320B/C - 3/1 trans/tanker
                        C-130H/H-30/KC-130H - 6/1/5 trans/tanker
                        CASA-235/M - 20 trans
                        CASA C-212 - 74 trans/trng/SAR/ECM

                        Spanish Navy

                        Enlistment: 37,000

                        VSTOL Aircraft Carrier: 1
                        AEGIS Class Destroyers: 4 (1 being fitted out, 3 planned)
                        Perry Class Frigates: 6
                        Knox (Upgraded) Class Frigates: 5
                        Light ASW Frigates: 4
                        S-80 Class Submarines: 4 are planned (Very new Design)
                        Agosta Class Subs: 4
                        Daphne Class Subs: 4

                        Spanish Marines

                        Enlistment: 11,500

                        Equipiment: Mainly Light Tanks, BMRs, and other stuff.
                        For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

                        Comment

                        • #72
                          We were talking about Holland vs Ethiopia giani. Spain isn't involved

                          And as you can see, how would Holland be able to invade Ethiopia with a mere 50,000 troops?
                          Quod Me Nutrit Me Destruit

                          Comment

                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Mark L
                            We were talking about Holland vs Ethiopia giani. Spain isn't involved

                            And as you can see, how would Holland be able to invade Ethiopia with a mere 50,000 troops?
                            Just comparing Holland with Spain.
                            For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

                            Comment

                            • #74
                              Spanish Alvaro de Bazan class destroyers VS Dutch De Zeven Provincien class command & air defense destroyers

                              Ships, Holland:

                              De Zeven Provincien, 4/2002, trials
                              Tromp, 2003, building
                              De Ruyter, 2004, building
                              Evertsen, 2005, ordered

                              Ships, Spain:

                              Alvaro de Bazan,9/2002, fitting out
                              Roger de Lauria, 2003, building
                              Blas de Lezo, 2004, ordered
                              Mendez Nunez, 2005, ordered



                              De Zeven Provincien class command & air defense destroyers
                              Displacement: 6,044 tons full load
                              Dimensions: 144.2 x 17.2 x 5.2 meters (473 x 56.5 x 17 feet)
                              Propulsion: 2 shafts, 2 cruise diesels; 2 SM1A boost gas turbines,
                              28-30 knots
                              Crew: 202 (incl. flag)
                              Aviation: deck and hangar for 2 helicopters
                              Radar: SMART-L and APAR radars
                              Sonar: Atlas-Werke hull mounted
                              Armament: 32 vertical launch SM-2MR, 32 vertical launch ESSM (Sea
                              Sparrow), 8 Harpoon SSM, 1 5/54 DP, 2 30 mm Goalkeeper CIWS, 2 20 mm,
                              4 12.75 inch torpedo tubes

                              Alvaro de Bazan class destroyers
                              Displacement: 5,802 tons full load
                              Dimensions: 146.7 x 17.5 x ?? meters (481 x 57.5 x ?? feet)
                              Propulsion: 2 shafts, 2 Bazan/MTU cruise diesels; 2 LM2500 boost
                              gas turbines, 47,494 shp, 29 knots
                              Crew: 229 +16 flag + 5 transients
                              Aviation: aft helicopter deck & hangar with RAST; 1 SH-60B
                              Radar: SPY-1D multifunction
                              Sonar: DE1160 bow
                              Fire Control: Aegis AAW system, DLT-309 ASW system, 2 Mk 99 missile
                              control with SPG-62 radars
                              EW: Aldebaran & Mk9000, 2 SRBOC, SLQ-25A Nixie
                              Armament: 1 48 cell VLS (Standard SM-2MR, ESSM), 8 Harpoon SSM,
                              1 5/54 DP, 1 20 mm Meroka CIWS, 4 12.75 inch torpedo tubes, 2 20 mm
                              Spanish design with AEGIS AAW system and a powerful ASW capability.




                              Tough one.
                              Quod Me Nutrit Me Destruit

                              Comment

                              • #75
                                Spain:

                                VSTOL carrier (16,917 tons, 1988): 1
                                Alvaro de Bazan class destroyers (5,802 tons, 2002/5): 4 ordered
                                Santa Maria (Perry) class frigates (3,982 tons, 1986/95): 6
                                Baleares (Knox) class frigates (4,177 tons, 1973/76): 5
                                Descubierta class light ASW Frigates (1,640 tons, 1980/82): 4
                                S-80 class submarines (1,565 tons, 2005/??): 4 ordered
                                Galerna (Agosta) class coastal submarines (1,767 tons, 1981/84): 4
                                Delfin (Daphne) class coastal submarines (1,043 tons, 1973/75): 4

                                Holland:

                                De Zeven Provincien class command & air defense destroyers (6,044 tons, 2002/5): 4 ordered
                                Tromp class command & air defense destroyers (4,308 tons, 1976): 1
                                Jacob Van Heemskerck ("L") class air defense frigates (3,750 tons, 1986): 2
                                Kortenaer ("Standard") class frigates (3,786 tons, 1981/82): 2
                                Karel Doorman ("M") class frigates (3,320 tons, 1991/94): 8
                                Walrus class submarines (2,800 tons, 1992/94): 4



                                Comparison:

                                Submarines: Spain has 8 old coastal subs, while Holland has 4 newer ocean going subs twice as heavy as the Spanish ones. 4 newer Spanish subs are ordered, but won't come in service before 2005.

                                Destroyers: Spain has currently no destroyers in service, Holland has 1 old Tromp class. From 2002 to 2005 both fleets will recieve 4 modern destroyers.

                                Frigates: Spain has 15, Holland 14. 9 Spanish frigates are older than 19 years, versus only 2 Dutch ones. The Spanish Descubierta class is only 1,600 tons, but the Knox class frigates are 4,100.

                                Carriers: Spain has one VSTOL carrier, Holland has none.


                                Hmmmm. Very tough one.

                                8 coastal subs, 9 old frigates, 6 new frigates, 1 VSTOL carrier VS 4 ocean-going subs, 2 old frigates, 12 new frigates, 1 old destroyer.
                                Quod Me Nutrit Me Destruit

                                Comment

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