The X-Box is here -- Are you ready? ;)

[Wiglaf]

I read a few posts in this hugely boring, pro-MS propaganda waste of a thread, and I'm ready to respond to its ignorance.

first off, the playstation 2 is a gigantic ripoff. for $500 (games, controllers, memory cards, system unit - things you wouldn't want to include in the base price, but in reality we all know it's there), you get a half assed DVD player along with some pretty nice hardware, although it's nothing special. the problem with the ps2 is the software. it sucks, it's expensive.

as for the dreamcast, it's a bargain that's perfect for those not into hype. $79 is a third the cost of MS Office, six times less than a ps2 and a ridiculous amount lower than the Xbox. the reason is obvious (no new software), but only a moron would avoid the system just for that. the quality is what matters, not the color of the thing or the flashiness of the specs. the games that you have for the dreamcast are excellent. you aren't buying the popular setup with a DC, or the best hardware, but you're getting something arguably better than the ps2. of course, this assumes you're into this whole lame ass console gaming thing..

gamecube is for the 10 and under eurocom crowd. mario, zelda, whatever. piss piss and more piss.

xbox is interesting and looks good, but where's the innovation? I've seen all this before...football, basketball, sega ports, max payne, halo...bleh. granted the graphics are great to look at, but this doesn't seem like a very ambitious effort by MS. what original efforts were you referring to, glonky?

it's worth noting that the Xbox's ad campaign exceeds nintendos by a a HUGE amount of money. at this rate, it's not unreasonable to see MS spilling into other industries. although, since this is essentially an ugly computer, it's a safe prediction that xbox will fail even with all its extra hype benefits.

at $480 or so, and that's without many addons, the xbox will be laughable in the market. windows XP had a mediocre outing, this will be even worse. bad year for the industry.

[November Adam]

pc vs. console.

I personally prefer the pc, yet the console does have it's benifits:
Consoles
1) The sole purpose of this thing is games
2) Stable hardware config.
3) Easier game development.
4) No need to upgrade.

PC's
1) Latest and greatest hardware (upgradeability)
2) Very large genre selection
3) Keyboard
4) Civ games


Sidenote--- can the X-box plug into a computer monitor?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wraith
However, one of my friends is still a hard-core gamer. He even works for a video game company, running their internal servers. I've heard plenty of stories from him about the various game dev kits and platforms, and, well, let's just say he isn't getting an X-Box. Doesn't matter what the specs are if you can't get your machines stable... Even the demo boxes in stores have a nasty habit of crashing, and at that it sounds like they've improved things since the dev kits.

When Dreamcast came out, people said the same thing.
When PS2 came out, people said the same thing.
Look: When the consoles run 24/7 in a cabinet with little to no circulation, they overheat and go kaput. It's a known fact.
Your little story about that was posted on Slashdot weeks ago, and it was inundated with comments about how stupid it is to be making news out of something all consoles do in display cases.

Your friend probably has the same anti-MS sentiments as you've always shown, so I really wouldn't be surprised if he isn't getting an Xbox. But let him do what he wants, maybe he likes 4 megs of VRAM on the Dreamcast, or the castrated anti-aliasing on the PS2.

They also seem to have the worst designed controllers available right now, so I bet the third-party market for X-Box controllers will be fairly big.

You haven't even used the thing. If you have, it's been only for a minute or so. (At this point we remember that Wraith is hopelessly anti-MS anything, so go figure)

six times less than a ps2 and a ridiculous amount lower than the Xbox.

Hey genius, the PS2 is the exact same cost as the Xbox. The MSRP is exactly the same for both of them. MS is going to match the PS2 price for price, with a significant loss per unit sold, to get a foothold in the market.

xbox is interesting and looks good, but where's the innovation? I've seen all this before...football, basketball, sega ports, max payne, halo...bleh. granted the graphics are great to look at, but this doesn't seem like a very ambitious effort by MS. what original efforts were you referring to, glonky?

Just so you know, Wiglaf, you should either clarify your sentence or do some research. If you would look at my comment, I said 'after about 6 months' they will become more original, and you just listed off the games available in < 6 months. Check out www.planetxbox.com yourself or http://xbox.ign.com and look at some of the previews.
And again, how does this tie into MS' efforts? MS isn't making the vast majority of the games, Wiglaf... And if you don't think Xbox is ambitious, you should either look up the definition of the word or just do some research.

since this is essentially an ugly computer, it's a safe prediction that xbox will fail even with all its extra hype benefits.

LOL! Perfect example of supreme idiocy.
Xbox is as much as a PC as much as the Gamecube is a Mac. Honestly, it's true. Take a look at the technical designs of it, the fact that it uses a modified Pentium III doesn't make the Xbox a PC, just like the fact that the Gamecube uses a modified PowerPC chip doesn't make it a Mac. The Gamecube uses a video processor manufactured by ATi, the Xbox one by Nvidia. Doesn't mean they're computers.

I wonder how many times now, wiglaf, you've made sweeping comments like the one above without a clue whatsoever about what you're speaking of. Staggering count.
I seriously doubt the Xbox will fail. It's technologically superior to all of the other consoles, game development is cheap and incredibly easy in comparison to the other consoles, and MS has deep pockets to dip into to ensure a foothold into the consumer's living room (digital entertainment has some big bucks in it).

[Wraith]

--"When Dreamcast came out, people said the same thing.
When PS2 came out, people said the same thing."

They did? Who? When? Where? Why?

Sorry, but no, this is not a "common story" thing. This is from a company that actually has the damn units, not just the display case rumors.

--"Your friend probably has the same anti-MS sentiments as you've always shown,"

Well, considering he's forced to run an NT network plus Exchange at work, that'd be only natural.
However, it isn't the case. He runs XP at home.

--"You haven't even used the thing"

See above. You think these companies don't test their games before they ship them? Now, granted, you're a Microsoft fan, so I can see where you'd be getting that impression, but it is not industry standard practice.

Wraith
"In fact he was incurably insane and hallucinated more or less continually, but by a remarkable stroke of lateral thinking his fellow wizards had reasoned, in that case, that the whole business could be sorted out if only they could find a formula that caused him to hallucinate that he was completely sane."
-- Terry Pratchett ("The Truth")

[Wiglaf]

Hey genius, the PS2 is the exact same cost as the Xbox. The MSRP is exactly the same for both of them. MS is going to match the PS2 price for price, with a significant loss per unit sold, to get a foothold in the market.

what's up with that loss per unit sold BS? where are you going with that? the ps2 must've gone through the same thing, as will the gamecube. MS isn't the only one in the industry selling without immediate profit...

as for the price point, most Xboxes are sold in bundles, and even if they aren't, they should be (find me one xbox owner without a game and an extra controller...)

ust so you know, Wiglaf, you should either clarify your sentence or do some research. If you would look at my comment, I said 'after about 6 months' they will become more original, and you just listed off the games available in < 6 months. Check out www.planetxbox.com yourself or http://xbox.ign.com and look at some of the previews.
And again, how does this tie into MS' efforts? MS isn't making the vast majority of the games, Wiglaf... And if you don't think Xbox is ambitious, you should either look up the definition of the word or just do some research.

most of the "original stuff" I see includes Halo (bungie PC), Jet Radio (sega port), SWAT games (PC), movie titles (aka crap)...great stuff.

LOL! Perfect example of supreme idiocy.

Xbox is as much as a PC as much as the Gamecube is a Mac. Honestly, it's true. Take a look at the technical designs of it, the fact that it uses a modified Pentium III doesn't make the Xbox a PC, just like the fact that the Gamecube uses a modified PowerPC chip doesn't make it a Mac. The Gamecube uses a video processor manufactured by ATi, the Xbox one by Nvidia. Doesn't mean they're computers.

the games are mostly PC ports and the console is manufactured by a computer based company with lots of money to spend on marketing, to the point where little is needed when it comes to innovation. the thing has a hard drive, asher...

[November Adam]

Actually Microsoft's timing on this release is pretty good, even with the high cost.

Look at it this way, lots of people are saying it will be like the Atari Jaguar, or the host of other powerful systems that came out and where costly. Sure these ones died out, but lets not forget the market.

Anyone who would have been interested in these would have been youngsters, there parents would not be willing to buy them, the difference is now, those youngsters have their own money just burning a hole in their pocket.

Their market is the 18-30's... people who grew up with collecovision, intellivision, atari, nintendo, and sega. We remeber how crappy the graphics were then, and we see what they are like now. We are still big kids, but now we can buy our own toys.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
what's up with that loss per unit sold BS? where are you going with that? the ps2 must've gone through the same thing, as will the gamecube. MS isn't the only one in the industry selling without immediate profit...

PS2 was also sold at a loss, but not as big of one. MS loses $110 on each box sold, PS2 was $50 IIRC.

most of the "original stuff" I see includes Halo (bungie PC), Jet Radio (sega port), SWAT games (PC), movie titles (aka crap)...great stuff.

Compare this to PS2 or Gamecube.
Mario XVII, MarioKart XXXX, Gran Turismo 3, Waveracer II, etc.
Xbox has games like Oddworld, New Legends, Halo, Gun Metal, Circus Maximus, The Simpsons: Road Rage, The Thing, Nightcaster, Arctic Thunder, Heli Heroes, Project Nomads, Mad Dash, Chase, Wiggles, Fate, Warzone Online, Malice, etc. Plus a TON of others.

the games are mostly PC ports and the console is manufactured by a computer based company with lots of money to spend on marketing, to the point where little is needed when it comes to innovation. the thing has a hard drive, asher...

So then the 20GB Nomad Jukeboxes are computers also, then?

Xbox does have a hard drive, and I think that's great for a console. Why WOULDN'T you put a hard drive on a console?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wraith
--"When Dreamcast came out, people said the same thing.
When PS2 came out, people said the same thing."

They did? Who? When? Where? Why?

Sorry, but no, this is not a "common story" thing. This is from a company that actually has the damn units, not just the display case rumors.

Actually, it IS a common story thing.
You should go in and look at the Slashdot thread on the "Xbox crashes", look at the comments. Lots of informative links and statistics.

See above. You think these companies don't test their games before they ship them? Now, granted, you're a Microsoft fan, so I can see where you'd be getting that impression, but it is not industry standard practice.

Erm...so what you're saying is that because companies beta test their games before shipping you got a bunch of experience with the controller? Gotcha.

[Lonestar]

Who was th' Bastard who voted for Dreamcast?

[Asher]

I should also point out that, contrary to Wiglaf's comment, Microsoft does not manufacture the Xbox.

If you want to learn about how the Xbox is manufactured, read the November 2001 issue of Wired (with the big 'Xbox is here.' text and picture of the Flextronics CEO holding an Xbox.

[Wiglaf]

Originally posted by Lonestar
Who was th' Bastard who voted for Dreamcast?

what?

Compare this to PS2 or Gamecube.
Mario XVII, MarioKart XXXX, Gran Turismo 3, Waveracer II, etc.
Xbox has games like Oddworld, New Legends, Halo, Gun Metal, Circus Maximus, The Simpsons: Road Rage, The Thing, Nightcaster, Arctic Thunder, Heli Heroes, Project Nomads, Mad Dash, Chase, Wiggles, Fate, Warzone Online, Malice, etc. Plus a TON of others.

console gaming in general, including the PS2 and gamecube, is becoming less and less original every day. the dreamcast was a perfect example of what happens to a system that tries to do something different when it comes to gameplay: the mass market wasn't interested, as the attention was mainly on brand name titles, etc.

personally I think a few of the hyped dreamcast games weren't that great, although some I've played really were innovative enough to sell more than the 300,000 copies total they did. but the ps2? rehashes, and it took only a few minutes of playing to figure that out. console gaming in general is terrible, just to restate my opinion on the whole thing. generally it's all child-oriented crap for people with no attention span.

sorry.

in any event, 90% of the games you listed are going to be trashy first generation efforts with no name companies behind them. I can understand one or two being good or great, but don't get carried away.

PS2 was also sold at a loss, but not as big of one. MS loses $110 on each box sold, PS2 was $50 IIRC.

link...

So then the 20GB Nomad Jukeboxes are computers also, then?

Xbox does have a hard drive, and I think that's great for a console. Why WOULDN'T you put a hard drive on a console?

why wouldn't it have a keyboard? a mouse? speakers? a monitor? a pentium 4?

I'm not saying a hard drive makes something a computer. it does make for some interesting similarities, though. and if the nomad jukebox runs software CDs on a windows/MS based setup, I'll look into it.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
console gaming in general, including the PS2 and gamecube, is becoming less and less original every day. the dreamcast was a perfect example of what happens to a system that tries to do something different when it comes to gameplay: the mass market wasn't interested, as the attention was mainly on brand name titles, etc.

That argument can be made about absolutely everything (PC games, music, even art). Nothing to see here.

just to restate my opinion on the whole thing. generally it's all child-oriented crap for people with no attention span.

Okay, now I see why you're saying such silly things. You haven't even looked at much of the Xbox games, have you?
The target audience for the Xbox is 18+. The target audience for Dreamcast was 12+, the target audience for the Gamecube is "6-18" (by their own admission, btw.)

Games like DOA3, Halo, etc are not "childrens games".

in any event, 90% of the games you listed are going to be trashy first generation efforts with no name companies behind them. I can understand one or two being good or great, but don't get carried away.

LOL! Again, COMPLETE ignorance.
Look at the previews yourself, look at the screenshots, gameplay comments, and the developer names (no-name developers like Bungie, Konami, Red Storm, Electronic Arts, Eidos )

link...

November 2001 edition of Wired.
Has the economics behind the Xbox.

why wouldn't it have a keyboard? a mouse? speakers? a monitor? a pentium 4?

Erm...because it's not a computer? Duh?

I'm not saying a hard drive makes something a computer. it does make for some interesting similarities, though. and if the nomad jukebox runs software CDs on a windows/MS based setup, I'll look into it.

Ah, but the Xbox doesn't run "software CDs". It runs specifically formatted DVDs (your PC games won't work on the Xbox, and vice versa). If anything, the Jukebox is more like a PC in that regard because you can play the same MP3 on the jukebox as you can on the PC.

[Wiglaf]

That argument can be made about absolutely everything (PC games, music, even art). Nothing to see here.

most original art and music are quite successful, actually.

Okay, now I see why you're saying such silly things. You haven't even looked at much of the Xbox games, have you?
The target audience for the Xbox is 18+. The target audience for Dreamcast was 12+, the target audience for the Gamecube is "6-18" (by their own admission, btw.)

Games like DOA3, Halo, etc are not "childrens games".

I was talking about console gaming in general - normally people who buy a pretty expensive machine just to play games aren't very mature/old. of course there are exceptions, but for the most part console gaming is for the younger crowd.

and don't tell me DOA2, soul caliber, and soldier of fortune were for preteen kids, either, as their ESRB rating exceeds 18+...

LOL! Again, COMPLETE ignorance.
Look at the previews yourself, look at the screenshots, gameplay comments, and the developer names (no-name developers like Bungie, Konami, Red Storm, Electronic Arts, Eidos)

nah, no name developers like Pseudo Interactive (Cel Damage), Mediaquest (Have a Mice Day), Brute Force (Digital Anvil), and Genki (Maximum Chase) come to mind, though...

November 2001 edition of Wired.
Has the economics behind the Xbox.

link.

Erm...because it's not a computer? Duh?

why have a hard drive then?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
most original art and music are quite successful, actually.

Right -- as are original games.
But that's not what you argument was...

nah, no name developers like Pseudo Interactive (Cel Damage), Mediaquest (Have a Mice Day), Brute Force (Digital Anvil), and Genki (Maximum Chase) come to mind, though...

You've never heard of Digital Anvil?
Actually, I have a friend who works at Digital Anvil in Austin. He did network programming for Freelancer.

link.

Buy the magazine yourself, you cheap bastard.

why have a hard drive then?

1) Game demos
2) Lower loading times
3) More saved game space
4) Game add-ons (more levels, etc)

[Wiglaf]

Right -- as are original games.
But that's not what you argument was...

original games aren't very well recieved in the videogame industry, but sad ports and sequels sell millions of copies. that was my original argument, wasn't it?

You've never heard of Digital Anvil?
Actually, I have a friend who works at Digital Anvil in Austin. He did network programming for Freelancer.

no, and the only noticable developer I found out of the sports sector was Ubi Soft.

Buy the magazine yourself, you cheap bastard.

sorry to dissapoint you ash, but if you haven't realized it already, I don't piss away money.

1) Game demos
2) Lower loading times
3) More saved game space
4) Game add-ons (more levels, etc)

they should have speakers, a keyboard, a monitor, and a mouse too.

1) better control
2) more input options
3) improved sound
4) better image quality.
5) etc, etc.