The X-Box is here -- Are you ready? ;)

[November Adam]

Originally posted by Wiglaf


it's inflated, and even with the edge 7.9 is nothing to be too excited about.

9.1 would be inflated. 7.9 would be less so.

[Wiglaf]

The XBox is a tool of communism, through and through, much in the same way Bill Gates' glasses are. Both enable the short little man to see us and invade our privacy and tweak his products in ways normal competitors cannot. Therefore, we have to "break up" his glasses.

Got me?

[monkspider]

Ashie Boy! You disappoint me! My very able debate partner over the course of this thread is forced to rely on "X game stinks because I say it stinks"? Come on!
Let's take a look at your collapsing arguement.



"Ridge Racer? Did you even PLAY that game? It's not very good. Project Gotham Racer (Xbox) is actually better.
Tekken Tag? Tekken still exists?
Madden 2001 vs. NFL Feever 2002. :hmm:
DOA2 vs DOA3... :hmm:


SSX was pretty good, but it wasn't that great.
NO PS2 launch title can compare to Halo or DOA3. Check the review ratings yourself."

Again, says no one but you. SSX got many 9.8's and even 10s from the gaming press, I say SSX, at least for it's time a year ago, was much better than Halo or DoA3 now. Heck, if you are basing so much on your own personal preference. I would rather play the original SSX than those two X-Box games. And who cares if you don't like Tekken? That was another well recieved game that sold well. I will actually take your word on the Gotham/RR thing though.



"Dude, you can't know what the good games are unless you've played them before. So of COURSE the only good games you KNOW about for sure are ones you've already played."

-The brutal ironly here is that you are basing your entire arguement for X-box's superiority on games you have never played. Have you played most games on PS2 or Gamecube? Have you even played even a majority of the AAA games on PS2? It's unreasonable to expect someone to play every game under the sun. And for the record, games that I'm referring to as "good" are the ones that are well recieved by the gaming press. I even refer to halo as good, even though my hatred of FPS games would insure that I personally didn't like it.




I didn't say no "mature" gamers liked Mario and company. It's just that most don't.
Go ahead, ask your fellow college students: Mario 64 or Goldeneye? which one will they answer?

I would say Mario actually, not everyone likes FPS games you know. I can understand how this may seem inconseivable if FPS'ers are the main games you and your friends play, but it is actually very possible I assure you. I'm not even a huge Mario fan by any means, but I would say for the most part, Mario games have a very large following in the 18+ gaming market. If we are in the habit of making ridiculous claims, I can say most mature gamers don't like FPS games because I personally don't like them.


"And what's wrong with loading your lineup up with great games on pre-existing consoles, and then accompany that with your own great games on top of that?
That seems like a good idea to me.
Or maybe they should listen to you and not get the good games from other consoles and make them better looking, because you just KNOW that they've already been out for a few months...

Hell, how many years was Half-Life out? Isn't that on the PS2?
How about Unreal Tournament?
Once again, your argument is full of flaws and simply hypocritical."

-How is that hypocritical? Simply based on the simple existence of two games for PS2? Come now, ashie boy! That is still FAR better than what X-box has going for it. The main flaw with the X-box strategy of relying on ports is that people who already own say PS2s or PCs or Gamecubes aren't going to be easily convinced to purchased this magic box of microsofts if the vast majority of the good games can be played already on the consoles they have. In fact, they probably beat them months ago. While it's true these games will recieve enhancements, none but the most hardcore followers would buy an game with a couple extra bells and whistles that they have already played and beaten long ago.


"I'm not basing my love on the system based on my like for Windows. Honestly.
I use what I like. I like Nvidia, I like Intel, and I like Microsoft's deep deep pockets.
Put the three together, and you've got one killer system.
If I had the money right now I'd buy a Gamecube.
I wish I could afford to buy both, but I had to choose. I chose the Xbox primarily because it's a much better compliment for my home theater system than Gamecube is, and quite frankly it's more powerful. There are good and great games on all consoles, and none of them are going to fail.
For the people who think the Xbox is going to fail...well, maybe they don't know just how much money and weight MS has to throw around to make it work. "

Fair enough, but just remeber the 3D0, a game that *did* have really a few really killer apps for the time. Also, Panasonic seemed to have infinitely deep pockets for the support of this system. But it too failed, granted X-mBox hasn't made many of the same launch-mistakes Panasonic made, but it should be shown that not even Microsoft is invincible. So your arguement that just because Microsoft is rich, the X-box will destroy the competition doesn't hold water. Heck Sony is pretty rich too, and Nintendo I'm sure has made some money over the years.

[Wraith]

--"So how long before PC catchs up to X-BOX in processing power?"

They have been for quite a while. The processor in the X-Box is a scaled-down P3-733. Graphically, the X-Box will be surpassed as soon as nVidia releases the NV25. In many ways, it already is surpassed by the GeForce 3 Ti200 (which has more memory bandwidth, and can therefore handle higher resolutions).

Wraith
Television must be a medium as it is neither rare nor well done

[Asher]

Oh...my...god.
Wiglaf, tell me you DIDN'T just say this:

The XBox is a tool of communism, through and through, much in the same way Bill Gates' glasses are. Both enable the short little man to see us and invade our privacy and tweak his products in ways normal competitors cannot. Therefore, we have to "break up" his glasses.

If that wasn't enough, you go on to say every gaming site that is giving good reviews of Xbox games are MS biased and whatnot.

Get a clue. REALLY! Please!

like Age of Empires, MS again seeks to copy original game designs (civ2/myth, nfl2k1,madden/fever) to try and get a foot in the competitive industry. how low is that?

In your infinite wisdom, you forgot that MS doesn't actually make those games.
MS just publishes them, and now owns the development company that makes them (Ensemble Studios, IIRC)

try the civ series, the new RTS games like empire earth or myth, and all the RPGs like diablo. of course, that's leaving out World of Warcraft, and every other genre busting title slated for mid 2002 release (there are maybe two or three others, judging by preview lists).

You're absolutely right! The Civ series and RTS games are shining examples of originality ONLY existing on the PC side of things!
Funny...

Again, says no one but you. SSX got many 9.8's and even 10s from the gaming press, I say SSX, at least for it's time a year ago, was much better than Halo or DoA3 now. Heck, if you are basing so much on your own personal preference. I would rather play the original SSX than those two X-Box games. And who cares if you don't like Tekken? That was another well recieved game that sold well. I will actually take your word on the Gotham/RR thing though.

If you want to play SSX, why don't you play SSX: Tricky on Xbox? Sequel to SSX, rated higher, and the Xbox version has a graphical facelift compared to the GC/PS2 while keeping the same gameplay.

The brutal ironly here is that you are basing your entire arguement for X-box's superiority on games you have never played.

Erm...I am? No, I am not.
WIGLAF is basing his argument on the fact that "Xbox has no good games and never will". Stupid, yes, but he seems to believe it.

Have you played most games on PS2 or Gamecube?

I have not played most games on the PS2 (there are like 200 now aren't there?). I've played the "better" ones according to people I know, review sites, etc. Again, my brother owns the PS2.
And I've played about half of the Gamecube games: Rogue Squadron II, Luigi's Mansion, Super Monkey Ball, NFL 2K2, and WaveRace II. One of my friends who lives on campus bought the Gamecube, so I spent quite a bit of time in his dorm room. Again: Gamecube does have a respectable launch lineup, most games are pretty fun for the most part.

Have you even played even a majority of the AAA games on PS2?

Yup. My brother's a console gaming nut.
Let me also say this: He thought the Xbox was pretty lame also before he actually played it.
He's playing Halo nonstop now, hasn't even touched his PS2 except for once to compare DOA2 to DOA3's graphics. Let's just say: Not even close.

They have been for quite a while. The processor in the X-Box is a scaled-down P3-733. Graphically, the X-Box will be surpassed as soon as nVidia releases the NV25. In many ways, it already is surpassed by the GeForce 3 Ti200 (which has more memory bandwidth, and can therefore handle higher resolutions).

While true in one sense, Wraith, you left out some other important features.
The Xbox's GPU has an extra vertex shader pipeline. This effectively doubles T&L calculations and all other vertex program applications. That's the main reason you can get such stunning graphics in DOA3, etc. This won't pop up on the PC hardware for about a year, with the NV30 (which is also rumored to support NURBS)

Then there's also the fact that the Xbox actually has a hypertransport bus installed (800MB/s between the two bridges: IGP, MCP).

And finally, one point that can't be emphasized enough, the specialized OS. There is zero OS overhead on the Xbox. In fact, the OS takes up 510KB of RAM on the thing. 100% of your CPU cycles are going towards the game and the game alone, no OS things loaded you'll never use which will slow down the speed.

I think it'll be about 1 year before the PC can handle what the Xbox does.

But:

They won't. I mean, let's face it, the vast majority of gamers won't have a DreamForce (if that's what they call it) video card installed. In fact, I bet that video card alone will cost more than the entire Xbox (a GeForce 3 runs about the same price or more as the Xbox alone). What you'll get is some toned down graphics. And yes, I do know the companies can make them as an option or not, but it's really hard to make a game use 2 vertex pipelines, then to have that cut in half (or on pre-GF3 boards, have it entirely done in the CPU) without doing some major recoding.

Oh, and BTW, the GeForce 3 Ti200 doesn't have more memory bandwidth. It's 200MHz DDR RAM, and its core is 175MHz and it only has 1 vertex pipeline. That's theoretically the same memory bandwidth, I'll grant you that, but the fill rate is drastically different. Maximum theoretical fillrate on the Xbox is 4000MPixels/second, maximum theoreitcal on the Ti200 is 700MPixels/second. That's not including the extra muscle the Xbox has with vertex calculations.

[Wiglaf]

If that wasn't enough, you go on to say every gaming site that is giving good reviews of Xbox games are MS biased and whatnot.

Asher, it's widely known that IGN is a terrible sellout newsite. their reviews of the two axis and allies games were very positive, but if you look closer they are only beta checkups that assume all bugs will be fixed. great source, especially when a LOT of traffic is watching their every xbox evaluation, begging for good results.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
Asher, it's widely known that IGN is a terrible sellout newsite. their reviews of the two axis and allies games were very positive, but if you look closer they are only beta checkups that assume all bugs will be fixed. great source, especially when a LOT of traffic is watching their every xbox evaluation, begging for good results.

Gamespot is also a terrible sellout site, isn't it?

Tell me, Wiglaf, which site isn't a "sellout site"?

And if you cared to actually read any of their articles, you'd see that their reviews are based on the final version while their previews are based on betas (duh?).

[Wiglaf]

you obviously haven't either played axis and allies and its expansion, or read IGN's take on either. it's truely pathetic, yet the review managed to be out days before release. Interesting...

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
you obviously haven't either played axis and allies and its expansion, or read IGN's take on either. it's truely pathetic, yet the review managed to be out days before release. Interesting...

You do realize that game companies send reviewers the copies first, right?
Much like movie reviewers typically see movies before they're released?

[SnowFire]

FF X won't be on the PC

This is news to me. Source?

FFX is exclusive for the PS2 with regards to consoles, but as far as I know there's nothing stopping a PC port.

[November Adam]

Originally posted by Wiglaf


Asher, it's widely known that IGN is a terrible sellout newsite. their reviews of the two axis and allies games were very positive, but if you look closer they are only beta checkups that assume all bugs will be fixed. great source, especially when a LOT of traffic is watching their every xbox evaluation, begging for good results.

Well then why the hell did you tell me to look at gamespot or ign for an unbiased review for NFL Fever? Where you being sarcastic? If so why would you tell me to look at them when you said the Official X-Box Magazine WAS biased?

Wiglaf are you just yanking chains here or what? I don't care if you are but damn man you have to be joking. Otherwise your vision is incredibly clouded.

[monkspider]

lol, Microsoft ought to send you some sort of compensation for the increased revenue you are making it Ashie boy

[jep]

Originally posted by Wiglaf

funny, I don't. Besides, Morgan Stanley is a sellout organization, probably partially owned by MS or something, and only a few minutes of checking out that horrid quote will tell you that their reputation obviously applies here. I don't care what "Mary Meeker" has to say, she's one of 6.5 billion people who could make the same call either way. great "source"...

for the record, my article had a panel of proven experts and included polls of thousands of consumers.

Yes, I suppose MSDW no nothing of economics, marketing and finance et al. They're clueless beginners when it comes to predicting the successes of business ventures! I mean, the only reason they've managed to get to their position in the industry is...uh...hmm... Damn.


So where is this mythical article of yours? Who were these panel of experts? What was their justification? Who were these consumers? What was the question asked? When was it asked?
All contained in the article you say? Aww. Too bad this mysterious article doesn't appear to exist.

jeppy and asher.

When I call MS commie, I'm talking about the sort of communism they have in China or Cuba, where no one has any freedom, in the market or otherwise. In many ways, Bush - the most powerful person in the word - is being trampled by the size and power of MS alone, and damn if that isn't wrong or scary as hell.

China isn't a straight communist country anymore. Duh.

If there is such a thing as 'normal' communism. China was originally Maoist Communism (after Mao Tse-tung, obviously) who adapted Lenin's Communism to the primarily agrian population of China. Over the years it's become more open to foreign investment and it's economy and politics have changed somewhat. Communism, on the other hand, hasn't. Damn those abstract ideas and philosophies! Damn them all!

The sort of communism they have in Cuba? Sorry, try again. You really don't know anything about communism (or seemingly any political philosophy, the word you're looking for is fascism, not communism - but even then you'd be wrong), do you?

besides that, jeppsters, you sound a lot like glonky anyway. interesting.

You imply Glonk would bother to create a second account to argue against you? Haha.

And of course I sound like Glonk. Who do you think he learned the art of Zealot-bashing from in the first place?

[Asher]

Originally posted by monkspider
lol, Microsoft ought to send you some sort of compensation for the increased revenue you are making it Ashie boy

Why is it that you, UR, and Wiglaf always say stupid things like that when you got your arguments shot down?



Let's face it, Xbox is here to stay.
It's powerful, it's getting the games, and it's got $$$$ behind it. Anyone who says it's going to fail needs a headcheck.

[Urban Ranger]

Just for you, Glonk

If you actually forked out the money for an Xbox, you¡¦re probably not taking it apart to see what makes it go, but several other hardware sites have done that dirty deed along with a company called Chipworks Inc., a company that does reverse engineering for the semiconductor and electronics market. The company just put out a press release with comments on the lack of technical innovations in the console. By now, you probably know that the XBox is built around an Intel Pentium III processor running at 733 MHz, but Chipworks goes as far as saying that "The whole console is in fact a stripped down medium end PC with high end graphics." Here are the details Chipworks uncovered (some of which you also probably know). Produced by nVIDIA, the graphics processor is a custom chip starting from a GeForce3 core running at 250 MHz. The system memory consists of 64 MB DDR-SDRAM running at 200MHz. nVIDIA's graphic chip performance is 125 Mpolygon/sec with a memory bandwidth of 6.4 GB/sec, which Chipworks says is better than both Sony Playstation2 and Nintendo Game Cube and is the only significant difference between Xbox and its competitors. The second chip from nVIDIA's chipset has an IDE interface capable of Ultra DMA 100, a serial interface for 4 USB ports (the controller ports) and an Ethernet 10/100 interface. The 8MB memory cards share the USB bus with the controllers. The IDE bus connects a 10GB hard disk and a DVD reader. The disk contains a modified version of Microsoft's XP OS but cannot be read if hooked to a regular PC IDE interface. An additional PIC microcontroller produced by Microchip handles the front panel and some control signals for the IDE drive and DVD. The highest video resolution is 1920x1080 with HDTV capabilities and 64 audio channels with 3D support. The Xbox does not have a shared bus since it's a system with a strong interaction between only two chips: the Intel processor and the XGPU nVIDIA chip (as a North bridge chip). Bear in mind that we here at THG haven¡¦t taken one of the things apart, but that this particular company did and may have uncovered a few details you weren¡¦t aware of. This account makes it sound like the Xbox is just a wimpy PC that¡¦s been purposely set up to keep you from loading and playing other PC games you already own.

Did you just say it's *cough* powerful *cough*?