Fellow E. Europeans - let's show our gratitude to the west by posting "thanks" here!

[bogi]

Originally posted by Seeker


Unfortunately....the 'what to do afterwards' part has been mostly botched...

The first thing should have been a return of ethnic Germans to their rightful property and ancestral homes in the lands of the Slav.

That land was ours long before the germans ever had it. The germans should repay for warsaw,minsk,etc.. Then they might get something. Kalingrad is russia and Prussia is extinct.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by bogi
The Usa Made us Communist nothing to thank them for.

What country are you from?

Damn FDR

I can at least agree with this sentiment.

[bogi]

Poland,Read about the betrayal at Yalta.

[Victor Galis]

"The West could not really do much at Yalta. It had to give a sphere of influence to the Russians."

-Of course, but I'm saying we shouldn't be greatful for it.

"As for the economic misery from the sudden shift to capitalism, it was a neccessary adjustement process and things are now improving at a rapid pace."

-Ah, to some extents. But the necessary adjustment could have been softened, and there are some things that will take 10-50 more years to fix.

"Moreover, even though our incomes are only somewhat greater than during Communism, they are growing much faster and we have far greater economic choice."

-My grandparents have the most miserable state pensions, and I can certainly say that they are far worse off, at least those grandpartents on my mother's side.

"Do not forget that if it weren't for the collapse of the represive Communist regimes, we couldn't even be here to talk about it."

-Maybe, maybe not? But did the West take out communism? I would argue that it was the people of Berlin, and Gorbachov's non-intervention to crush the East German revolutionaries.

"Those that actually lived under the system don't seem to care for it much."

-You might not want to make such generalizations.

"Hey, maybe the CIA can find another Ceacescu (sp?) for you to enjoy, and you can take your lame ass back to Romania and we can all enjoy your absence from these discussion boards where I doubt you would be able to post anymore."

-I laugh in you general direction. There are more internet Cafes in Bucharest than... well there are a whole lot. If I took all my money with me, I would have no trouble spending the next year online (24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year).

"You ***** about the U.S. constantly, yet you live here and take the many freedoms and perks we offer."

-And I pay taxes to a government I can't vote for.

"You don't even have the balls to defend the people who make your life here possible."

-I don't need them, I can always return to Canada. I owe them nothing.

'Ehm... few would want to "return". And the property issue, that would open a can of worms of galactic dimensions. Nope. But some other things like getting formally rid of the Benes decrees... "

-Returning old property is a very bad idea for soo many reason.

"The Eastern Europe I am thinking of is not really the Czechs, Hungarians, or Lithuanians"

-Right, not the peoples whom you shower investment money on.

"but the 'crap' part like Rumanians, Moldovians, Poles, etc."

-You misspelled Romanians, and there is no such thing as a Moldovian.

"Oh ho ho! Wait until Mihai sees this "

-What about me?

"While capitalism may not demand strong civil rights to function in internal markets initially, it will be subsumed by more efficient systems because of the greater profits to be made when everyone in the state's abilities are allowed to be realized, and in the savings in security costs that a repressive state must expend."

-BS, it's people getting tired of being oppressed rising up. It has nothing to do with capitalism.

"You would really like my foreign policy La Russo, especially in comparison to Bush Sr., Clinton and Bush Jr. I wanted the U.S. out of NATO 10 years ago. I wanted the savings from that invested in alternative energy research, the decommissioning of most of our carriers (and some of that money spent on the development of arsenal ships). I wanted the U.S. to improve relations with Russia as it was leaving NATO, and a general but not precipitous pull back from most of our numerous security commitments. I am a neo-isolationist."

-I could stomach that pretty well. I would not lose the carriers, losing NATO is not crucial, isolationism isn't crucial. What's needed is a greater benevolence and pacifism. Speak softly, but carry a big stick.

... OK, there is no way I can respond to 60+ more replies... time to skip ahead to the last page.

"Why this endless crusade against the USA?"

-Realistic distrust/hate of the world hegemon?

"We laugh at all that "CIA" crap, and we are the harshest critics of our own country."

-Then why do you get pissed off when other people do it?

"The reason we cannot fall as a power is simple, because we ARE you, and every other nation on this earth."

-Give it about another century.

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by DanS
Ubik: following your convention, at least 95% of Americans are right wing.

That seems about right

[VetLegion]

To answer Roman, no, I do not think we have to thank west for anything.

Perhaps East Germans can thank the West Germans for paying 50 bilion DM for Red Army to leave (unchecked. I heard it recently) or for economic help after the union or something.

From Croatia standpoint, I think we do not have to thank anyone. Our freedom is won with difficulty. I could blame west for allowing the bloodshed if anything.

Sure, our emigrants worked in the west and sent money home, but because west loved us? No, because it needed workforce.
Sure, we got credits, but because they love us? No, because they bring them good interest

The western governments were, in my opinion, worthless to us. They threw weapons embargo at us when we needed weapons. The western public is the same public that looked at Vukovar and Dubrovnik being rased to the ground by superior force who had excess weapons and ammo. That same public will protest over increased price of milk or whatever. Yep, hypocrisy is a human thing, I admit I dont give a ****e about afghanistan for example.

But I dont see what I have to be grateful for.


In most other things I agree with OneFootInTheGrave. Bombing of Serbia is unfortunate, but it was the only way to take down Miloševiæ. No other way.

Some points to LaRusso:

Thanks for a good site!

Interesting points you bring up. I know about both. First, the Tuðman statement, well I have absolutely nothing good to say about the man. He did us so much harm... I simply cant see who could have done more. I personaly think he was nuts.

About Zec family. The people who did it were trialed, a few times actually and it is still lasting. Hopefully criminals will be punished.

btw, text is by a Feral Tribune journalist. They were the strongest opposition to Tuðman.

There are other cases of molesting Serbs in croatia, in a Lora military prison and other places. They are going to be persecuted. It is a big problem in croatia ... there are mass protests going on because some 'heroes' are in prison now. but we will pull it out hopefully. There are even trials raised now against partisan crimes in WW2. who would expect that?

However, I do not agree that Croatia should have been bombed. At any point.

[Sirotnikov]

Re: Re: Re: Re: This is not sarcasm!

Originally posted by LaRusso
I guess communists exterminated Native Indians. Also, it was them who orchestrated genocide against Armenians. Nice religious people all over Europe decimated each other for centuries under 'capitalism'. Also, capitalism is the system of many small states you would rather put under the carpet.

The things you attribute to capitalism here are the due to expansionism and imperialism.

Wa-hey, South Africa was also capitalist during apartheid, and so was America during slavery and later segregation. To equate capitalism with civil liberties is wrong. It can exist without them.

And racism.

Both of which existed under communism as well.

However, communism automatically brings about a bad quality of life, with little luxries, manye duties and mostly, corruption.

The cummisnt economic system in Russia and China were/are completely corrupt, and that because of the communism. It's not that they had bad communism, they had communism. And as expected people exploited it to their benefit. No one would work, no luxuries were available and usually large deficits for even the most usual products.

please take some time to count the number of capitalist countries in which people live only slightly better than animals. enjoy!

Please take some time to count the number of communist countries in which people live only slightly better than animals.
None.

While capitalism itself doesn't promise a good and thriving economy and society, communism ruins any chance for it.

[Roman]

This thread has grown beyond all my expectations and unfortunately I do not have time to reply to all the posts here. I thank the people who have joined me in expressing gratitude to the West and am happy to see that so many people from the West, especially the Americans, do not regrett their fight against Communism; though, with sadness I also note the presence of some who would like to reintroduce Communism into the present world. I hope , however, that this second group makes up only a small minority of the US and European people and the majority are happy that capitalism and democracy prevailed.

[Victor Galis]

Of course you make no mention of those of us who realize the West actually did nothing for us.

[Seeker]

"Kalingrad is russia and Prussia is extinct"

Kaliningrad is a historical aberration. What purpose does it serve?

Prussia and its ideal of an ordered and productive society is indeed gone...but the children and grandchildren remain.

The people of 'Kaliningrad' have no historical connection or roots in the land.

Spelling: In many Canadian textbooks 'Rumania' is given as an alternate spelling for 'Romania'.

'Moldova' --> the little country between Ukraine and Romania. Known for mainly exporting prostitutes.

I

[History049]

"West did nothing for us"

Yes, western Europe did nothing. USA did everything for you. All of you best be grateful like Roman/ Roman that's what I like to see out of a Eurocom. Rest of you, typical behavior, but you'll see in the afterlife !!!

[Victor Galis]

"Spelling: In many Canadian textbooks 'Rumania' is given as an alternate spelling for 'Romania'."

-It's a spelling that is over 50 years old, and has no basis for existance, except that it was common in the old days in English.

"'Moldova' --> the little country between Ukraine and Romania. Known for mainly exporting prostitutes."

-Right, but it's people are Romanian, Ukrainian, and possibly Russian, but there is no such thing as a Moldovan.

[bogi]

Originally posted by Seeker
"Kalingrad is russia and Prussia is extinct"

Kaliningrad is a historical aberration. What purpose does it serve?

The people of 'Kaliningrad' have no historical connection or roots in the land.

All thats left of Prussia is Kants Grave. Kallingrad is a russian city and it was built from the ground up no german connection(Built very ugly).


"The people of 'Kaliningrad' have no historical connection or roots in the land."

Yes they do Slavs had Prussia first. The germans didnt have any historical connection to the land. Germans were like americans in the USA.


And yes there GrandChildren Live on just like the Native Americans in Foxwoods CT


You are as much Prussian as I am African.

[Saras]

All thats left of Prussia is Kants Grave. Kallingrad is a russian city and it was built from the ground up no german connection(Built very ugly). "The people of 'Kaliningrad' have no historical connection or roots in the land."

Yes they do Slavs had Prussia first. The germans didnt have any historical connection to the land. Germans were like americans in the USA.


And yes there GrandChildren Live on just like the Native Americans in Foxwoods CT


You are as much Prussian as I am African.

When did Slavs live in Prussia, except for after the war? AFAIK there first were Prussians (a Baltic tribe, not a Slavic), then the Germans came and subjugated them, then they rose in a rebellion, then got subjugated again (1200s) and then it was Germans until 1945.

[Saras]

on a separate issue - how do I make an animated avatar?