US special forces 'inside Iran'

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Ned


FOX is the real voice of America.

Quite wrong. Fox is the voice of Rupert Murdoch, lately of Adelaide Australia and son of Sir Frank Packer, another Australian conservative. Lap it up.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ned
BTW, Spiffor, I think you are right. Both sides of the Atlantic seem to want to move towards better relations. I think Bush will definitely let the French, British and Germans take the lead on Iran and will not seek to push them asside if there is not immediate agreement on strategy.

I would like that, but I strongly doubt it

In general, we Euros can't agree on much when it comes to military/diplomatic matters, so it's hard to have a unified position. The Iranians will capitalize on it, and they'll use this weakness of ours to continue developing their nukes.

We'll likely agree to continue the diplomatic efforts we have already begun. However, the US is openly expecting the failure of that strategy. I can't blame them, considering the experience with North Korea.

In the end, either the US will accept that Iran has nukes and rationalize it, or it'll bomb Iran (or let Israel bomb Iran), suffering the criticism of most EU countries.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


Quite wrong. Fox is the voice of Rupert Murdoch, lately of Adelaide Australia and son of Sir Frank Packer, another Australian conservative. Lap it up.

You Aussies control the world because the US controls the world and your moguls control US public opinion!

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Because in the only situation that confirms your pattern (that we "always" undermine the US), we did not offer military help.

Again, that may be my bad grasp of the English language showing, but how can the Yanks welcome something they are not offered? (yes, this is a semantics distinction, but you asked me a semantics question)

No, because you couldn't be counted on when the chips were down. When push came to shove, you withdrew troops behind the Rhine. After that, France expected any Cold War government, or any who paid attention after the fact, to trust France?

You yourself are saying France went against the US and UK over Iraq to grab power in the EU. What can you count on such a country for when they are supposed to be an ally?

Your opportunities to lend aid are irrelevant. Your actions when you did act are all that needs be known.

[Spiffor]

NYE, in case you haven't noticed, this thread is about Iran, 2005 AD and later. The US and the European countries are worried that Iran develops working nukes, and they have adopted different strategies.

This particular thread is about the US sending sepcial forces in Iran, which sparked speculation about a future US-led war against Iran. We then went on to discuss if the US would possibly find allies on the other side of the Atlantic.

You have repeated plnety of times that the US could already dismiss France and Germany as possible allies, because they "always" undermine US efforts. I made the case that both France and Germany took part in similar US-led operations in the past (Iraq1, Kosovo, Afghanistan, although Germany didn't take part in Iraq1 because of its constitution).

Since you cannot deny these facts, you are now trolling me into explaining that France will never get the US back because we are basically "useless". I am sorry to tell you that your romantic perception of international relations, where you have friends you can rest your shoulders on, where friendship and past betrayal are as important as in a TV soap... Well, this perception is completely irrelevant to this thread: you have said nothing that denies the possibility that the US might find allies in France and Germany during an operation against Iran.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Ned


You Aussies control the world because the US controls the world and your moguls control US public opinion!

I'm afraid Rupert Murdoch doesn't share power with anyone - except him Mum - Lady Murdoch - who still lives in Melbourne Australia. She's a very nice old lady - with a lot of voting stock - so young Rupert has to pay attention.

[notyoueither]

Actually, I count on Germany and France to come begging for help, once again. What I have argued with you is whether French 'friendship' was worth more than a piece of Swiss chocolate.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Actually, I count on Germany and France to come begging for help, once again. What I have argued with you is whether French 'friendship' was worth more than a piece of Swiss chocolate.

And this is precisely the kind of debate I don't wish to enter, because:

1. I like to keep threads at least remotely connected to their original topic
2. The topic of French friendship is something that doesn't interest me
3. You are already so deep in your prejudices that you couldn't make a worthwhile contribution to such a topic. In the two times I got to see your opinion on the matter, I could see the discussion would go nowhere, just like a Mac/Windows thread (the first time, I discussed about it. The second time -that would be this thread- I was wiser).

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Actually, I count on Germany and France to come begging for help, once again. What I have argued with you is whether French 'friendship' was worth more than a piece of Swiss chocolate.

Begging for help? You mean those evil Belarusians will invade Germany? What will Canada do about it?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse

Lady Murdoch - who still lives in Melbourne Australia. She's a very nice lady.

She is indeed, a great patron of the arts and very much interested in all things cultural.

Rupes must be evidence of some throwback. His mother certainly didn't have a high opinion of his media outlets.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by notyoueither


$5 on French **** sucking bot.

$5 on you replying to an on topic post with mine with a response about me.

Flattering, yet pitiful.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Actually, I count on Germany and France to come begging for help, once again. What I have argued with you is whether French 'friendship' was worth more than a piece of Swiss chocolate.

Begging for help from who or with what?

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Spiffor
NYE, in case you haven't noticed, this thread is about Iran, 2005 AD and later. The US and the European countries are worried that Iran develops working nukes, and they have adopted different strategies.

This particular thread is about the US sending sepcial forces in Iran, which sparked speculation about a future US-led war against Iran. We then went on to discuss if the US would possibly find allies on the other side of the Atlantic.

You have repeated plnety of times that the US could already dismiss France and Germany as possible allies, because they "always" undermine US efforts. I made the case that both France and Germany took part in similar US-led operations in the past (Iraq1, Kosovo, Afghanistan, although Germany didn't take part in Iraq1 because of its constitution).

Since you cannot deny these facts, you are now trolling me into explaining that France will never get the US back because we are basically "useless". I am sorry to tell you that your romantic perception of international relations, where you have friends you can rest your shoulders on, where friendship and past betrayal are as important as in a TV soap... Well, this perception is completely irrelevant to this thread: you have said nothing that denies the possibility that the US might find allies in France and Germany during an operation against Iran.

He's not actually interested in debating the topic.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Well, actually I am close to the so-called "realist" understanding of international relations, where rational self-interest is the primary factor of diplomatic behaviour, and where ideas are are only secondary.

The world's public opinion didn't reject the war because of an efficient PR campaign by France and Germany. It rejected the war because the most people in the world oppose American imperialism, which is what the war looked like to them (I agree with that POV too). The French vocal opposition to the war might have given the world's public opinion a focus (especially European public opinions in countries whose government sided with Bush), but little else.

While I agree with your points, and we know that Chirac is a dumbass bent on creating his own sphere of influence, I guess my point is that the Old Eurocom alliance has formed an alternative to the policies of Bush. That public opinion didn't have much of the same outlet before, but now it does, and this was amplified by Old Europe.

And the public opinion outside of the US mattered zilch in Bush's decision. The only people Bush yould listen to are his advisors and the ones whose opposition could be harmful to him, like his own electorate, or the Brits. Fortunately, it proved easy to manipulate the electorate. It was more difficult to flatter Blair enough, by unergoing the whole UN mess. But that's the kind of lengths you need, if you want to keep your only significant ally.

The whole affair has made me sick to my stomach. And yes he got his way. But every time he steps on people, there are long term consequences.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by molly bloom


She is indeed, a great patron of the arts and very much interested in all things cultural.

Rupes must be evidence of some throwback. His mother certainly didn't have a high opinion of his media outlets.

Lady Murdoch still has a lot of stock. She was recently interviewed and talked about Rupert as if he were a naughty headstrong boy, but with clear affection.

I'm sure Murdoch gets immense satisfaction from the fact that so many Americans think FOX is a genuinely American and patriotic voice. Its a very Australian thing to do - to set people up and hoax them like that. He did exactly the same in Britain with his ultra nationalist newspapers. He just loved dragging the British establishment down and now he's doing something similar to the Americans.