Iranian propoganda - "For you Palestine - Zahra's blue eyes"

[Ned]

Siro, I love you. Good reply to PAX, who is ever on the side opposing Israel and America.

[Sirotnikov]

Ned, are you drunk?

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Probably not the worst excesses of the holocaust, considering that Goebbels refused to show the mass-killings of Jews in his propaganda. he feared a reaction from the Germans, should such a show happen.

Geez Spiffor, they had been promised that the Jews would be removed forever from Europe, and then their Jewish neighbors began to disappear. Tens of thousands of Germans were involved in building and guarding the death camps, surely many of them must have bragged to their families and friends back home about what they were doing. Furthermore the extermination of the Jews was also an integral function of the Whermacht on the eastern front. Undoubtably hundreds of thousands of German and axis soldiers participated in the extermination of the Jews and Gypsies.

But wait there's more. After the war the persecution of the Jews continued. As survivors attempted to return to their homes in the formerly occupied territories they faced the harassment of their neighbors. Jews, even their orphaned children, were beaten and even murdered upon returning to their homes. The cruel genie released by the Nazis did not vansih with the end of the war. I'm not talking about just Germany, but also Poland, France, Belgium, Hungary, and the list goes on and on.

[Tassadar500]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


Geez Spiffor, they had been promised that the Jews would be removed forever from Europe, and then their Jewish neighbors began to disappear. Tens of thousands of Germans were involved in building and guarding the death camps, surely many of them must have bragged to their families and friends back home about what they were doing. Furthermore the extermination of the Jews was also an integral function of the Whermacht on the eastern front. Undoubtably hundreds of thousands of German and axis soldiers participated in the extermination of the Jews and Gypsies.

[b]But wait there's more. After the war the persecution of the Jews continued. As survivors attempted to return to their homes in the formerly occupied territories they faced the harassment of their neighbors. Jews, even their orphaned children, were beaten and even murdered upon returning to their homes. The cruel genie released by the Nazis did not vansih with the end of the war. I'm not talking about just Germany, but also Poland, France, Belgium, Hungary, and the list goes on and on.[b]

When I read that a year ago, I almost puked.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Lord Nuclear



When I read that a year ago, I almost puked.

Well, it's true. The mistreatment of Jews returning home from the concentration camps is quite well documented. So also is the refusal of the numerous governments of post-war Europe to do anything to protect them.

The command of the Wehrmacht's Army Group South ordered combat troops not only to assist the SS commandos entrusted with dealing with the Jews, but also encouraged them to take the initiative and to out-compete the extermination specialists.

[Mr. Harley]

Most Europeans did not per se participate in the Holocaust. It is much more complicated than that. Their society(s) had been primed for more than a millenium, going back at least as far as St. Augustine. Any time a group, especially a majority, demonizes a minority and assigns them less than human status it is only a matter of time until someone exploits that, either because of hate or a desire for a power, or some combination.

Once the Nazis came to power, it was easy to minimize what was happening, or to deny it, or say it wasn't my affair and that isn't meddling in things like that dangerous. It only takes a small minority when the vast majority turns a blind eye. If you had shown the majority of Europeans at the time photos of the Death Camps they would have been horrified. The Nazis sanitized it and made it easy, just turn in your neighbor and he conveniently disappears.

Every single genocide of modern times has been telegraphed in naseating detail. In Rwadna, the Balkans, Uganda, and the Sudan the lead up to the killing was years if not decades long, to name some of the most recent . However, the west is not immune (more later).

What is frightening is that this video is what I would consider "final stage" priming the pump for genocide. Within a generation, when the next group of children grow up with this, you could expect such a society to carry out such an atrocity. Even now look at what has happened to the B'hai in Iran.

Much of the Arab, and distressingly now Muslim world (extending to Central Asia and Indonesia) is being primed with this kind of intolerance towards Jews, and even westerners. It is something to be gravely concerned about, as it can lead to the kind of vicious feedback loop that has existed in the Balkans where nobody can even tell who started it, atrocity begets atrocity and blood begets blood.

Look in the United States for the demonization of "rag heads" or Muslims (ignoring the accidental killing of the occasinoal Sikh in the process) while trying to justify indefinite detention without charge, or weasling over what constitutes torture. In Israel look at the justification for the seizure of Palestinian land and denying Israeli Arabs equal rights. (Sirotnikov, you having not been bitingly sarcastic to me, but you do demonstrate it at times - in the case of this video rightfully so I might add).

Neither case comes close to what is occuring now accross the Middle Eastern Muslim countries reference Jews. But both are symptoms that deserve serious attention, and grave concern. The distance from the pervasive, and mostly mild-moderate (severe is a pogrom) anti-semitism of pre-Nazi Europe to the holocaust was much shorter than anyone could have imagined.

When we in the United States teach the stories of lynchings and the terror of blacks in the South as part of every High School history course, and when our children know about not only Custer but the Sand Creek Massacre, then I will admit that we have come a far way from that. As long as a country ignores it's history, or tries to deny it's clay feet as well as glorious intentions, then it is much closer to the Europe of 1944 than many would care to admit.

If the guards at Abu-Graib had been taught about US atrocities in WW2 (few but they did happen), the even worse cases in Viet Nam, and had seen the letters of troopers who witnessed and were horrified by what happened at Sand Creek (some excellent modern historical research), they might have realized it is easy for everyday people to get sucked in by events like these. They might have recognized the language of dehumanizing the enemy to justify actions that you know are wrong. We might have a very different dynamic in Iraq, and we have shipped a couple of hundred fewer body bags home.

To quote Cromwell talking to Sir Thomas Moore in a Man for All Seasons - my copy is out on loan so forgive me if I'm off a little bit - "But this isn't Spain, it's England!"

[Ned]

An absolutely excellent post, Shawn. The blatant demonizing of the Jews in Europe lead directly to the Holocaust. The Nazis were not alone in this. And, as Dr. Strangelove said, the rabid anti-Semitism did not suddenly end at the close of hostilities.

By comparison, though, what is going on in Iran and in the Muslim world today appears to be far worse that what happened in Europe 70 years ago. This has to stop, or else we CAN expect the worst.

[Sirotnikov]

shawn - I compeltely agree with your post.

I think people tend to underestimate the strong power of propoganda and how it changes what people are willing to do and are willing to accept as normal.

I agree that there is a certain demonization of palestinians in Israel, that I have also been affected by.

I think though, that in Israel it is much less prevalent and, most importantly, - it is not directed from above, with a sinister purpose.

It happens when normal people or just cheap "journalists" are angry, and it happens when politicians wish to manipulate people.

I'm always amazed at the indifference show here towards racist imagery and propoganda in the arab world and often even in Europe - and even more at its justification and rationalization.

I mean, I realize that it is promoted by Israeli agressive steps, but no one said it is alright or normal, and by no means does it justify such vicious racist propoganda.

[Traianvs]

Re: Iranian propoganda - "For you Palestine - Zahra's blue eyes"

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
You're welcome to see the opening sequence, and the first 2 episodes of the new Iranian hit series "For you Palestine - Zahra's blue eyes".

It describes real life in the west bank and the evils of Israeli occupation.


Wittness Yitzhak Cohen, ubercommander of the west bank, initiate a health program consisting of stealing organs from Palestinian children and transplanting them in Israelis and other westerners.

Wittness brutal Israeli methods when Israeli commandos dressed as UN soldiers kidnap palestinian children for use in laboratories.

Wittness Israeli surgical procedures, transplanting no less than 32 palestinian hearts, thus saving the life of the Israeli president.

All this and more, now with english subtitles:

http://www.memritv.org/

Israelis are already buying organs from poor but healthy moldavians for $5000. A lot of money for them but it is rapidly spent of course. And usually they end up being incredibly poor again.
So what's the deal here?

PS: Stop using the word ant-semitism concerning WOII issues (Jews). All other Arabs living in the Middle-East (well most of them) are semites too!

[Sirotnikov]

Grow up Trajanus.

Illegal organ trade is one thing, and it is prevalent through out Europe. No reason to target Israel specifically. Blood libels of a sanctioned ethnic cleansing and organized organ theft is a whole different thing.


And your comment about arabs being semites is an just a smart-ass semantic argument. I'd rather you argue over content instead of semantics. It might impress people you usually speak to but not me.

Anti-semitism has always been used to describe specifically the hatred of Jews. The recent waves of hatred towards muslims and people of middle eastern origin in Europe and the US, has not once been labled 'anti-semitism'.

[Ned]

The expulsion and slaughter of Jews in England was preceded by decades of vicious propaganda, IIRC. This kind of demonization always seems to end in the same way.

The world's press really needs to get behind Israel on this issue and expose what is going on in the Muslim world. A constant drumbeat of world condemnation might get these hatemongers to stop, but at least the people of Islam will know that what they are hearing is vicious propaganda condemned by the whole world.

[Mr. Harley]

Sirotnikov, the thing that I find so terribly sad about Israel and the West Bank is that I fear it has reached the Balkan stage, ..."where nobody can even tell who started it, atrocity begets atrocity and blood begets blood." I hope for your sake, and the children on both sides, and for my daughter, I am wrong.

edited because of botched cut and paste that butchered a line.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov It might impress people you usually speak to but not me.

But he often does speak to you. So you could say that you the the sort that he usually speaks to( ie. an apolytoner).

[GePap]

Anti-Semitism is not enough in and of itself to lead to genocide. If that was so, why were there any Jews in Europe at all by 1933? I mean, its not like people in Europe had shown themselves to be incapable of exterminating other religious groups, specially some "heretical" Christian sects, and of simply drivng the Jews out, as Spain and England did in the middle ages.

Lets take Rwanda-yes, the makeup of that horrible incident could be seen , specially given the brutal previous incidents (a quarter of a million killed in secterian violence in the 1970's in Rwanda, similar killing going on in neighboring Burundi)- but in the end, what it took was a GOVERNMENT plan. Genocide does not simply happen- pogroms might start spontanously, but for anythinglike Genocide, a government plan is necessary- killing in such a scale is never natural- someone must direct it.

Iran has one of the few remaining large Jewish population in the ME, most of them having emigrated to Israel in the 1950's. 25 years after the regime took power, certainly there is harrasment of Jews in Iran, but as of yet, no mass killings, and in a country of 65 million, about 30,000 people would be no mean feat, now would it?

As for Ned's hysterics, what is interesting now is that in most Muslim states there are few if any Jews- so all the anti-semitism in programing is creating a convinient EXTERNAL enemy,not internal, like that of Nazi propaganda (With Iran being an exception as noted above). It is obviously aimed at Israel and the US. And yet, for it to be carried out as Ned thinks it will be, somehow?, it wopuld have to mean war, but war is another one of those things that occurs due to someone's policy, not just spontanously.

[Mr. Harley]

GePap, it's all a dynamic. If there is enough support for intolerance, someone will eventually thause t as a lever to come to power. Once that occurs genocide is now on the table.

It may be ethnic cleansing, or as I call it, "Genocide Lite". It may be pogroms, predating the hate mongers rise to total power. It is all vey germane.

Look at what was done to POW's on the Soviet front in WW2 by the Nazis (note - Stalin was monstrous but he was already treating his people like that, terror is a different dynamic than genocide though for those caught in the gears the end result is still dead). Look now what some of the Muslim terror groups are doing in Iraq.

The spread and fanning the flames of hate throughout the Muslim world, and then the developing dynamic this is setting up in the United States plus large portions of Europe and Asia, could lead to exactly to the kind of war you are minimizing. It could be another "cold war", with various kinds of conflict including economic, insurgencies, terror, and eventually untracable weapons of mass destruction, including diseases, nanotechnology, and even shipping-container nukes.

As the poster in the thread on India made the point, what if Paksitan for example falls under control of Wahabi-educated Pashtun fundamentalists? What then are the chances of a nuke going off in India, the United States, or Europe? What happens if some of the Arab funded Wahabi-extremists start to gain traction in the largely Sufi Central Asian Republics? Ned, while maybe erring on the far side of caution, and safety, is sadly not outside the realm of possiblity, maybe even probability.

The problem is that the West has been largely ignoring the development of this, and in fact has been complicit in setting the stage (think British post-WW1 policies and the lack of US oil-conservation policy). Unless realistic solutions are discussed, inclunding nation-building as a joint effort, and money spent, probably on a large scale (between nuclear power, renewable power, and vegetable oil based diesal what would it cost the United States to achieve energy independence?) the trends will sadly continue.