The fun of frustrated homophobes.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ah, we are all sinners.

[Ben Kenobi]

And if I am wrong, and you do not do this. Then I apologise, it is just my perception. (and I associate you with some other people I have heard)

No worries mate.

Please, if you think I have said something wrong, speak up!

I appreciate the scrutiny.

[Jon Miller]

I had changed it to PM, since that would be more appropriate.

But your PM box is full.

I agree with you that it is important to say what you beleive. I guess I read about every thread, and it seems you say so often. But maybe that is the nature of apolyton.

While it is the job of my Christian brother, when he is so impressed, to confront me about my sin, how I deal with my sin (and even if I am impressed with it) is between me and God (this is of course dealing just with the sin, not with the temporal aspects that might relate to it).

Jon Miller
(sorry about the inappropriateness, I just generally don't think of it, I will edit in my post if you will)

[Ben Kenobi]

If you prefer in private, try it now.

[Jon Miller]

For example, I beleive it is a sin to work on the Sabbath. But I never mention it once to any none SDA (or practicing Jew) that I meet.

Why? Because first they must be Christian (or Jewish). Than they must be impressed by God to keep the 4th commandment (which I will debate with other Christians). Finally I will point it out (if I am so impressed), but it still will be between them and God.

Jon Miller

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


What facts? People can overcome their inclinations if they are aware of them.

You've shown no sign of doing so.

[Agathon]

What facts? People can overcome their inclinations if they are aware of them.

I doubt I could make myself gay in the sense that I could experience sexual desire for men. I also doubt that I could stop feeling such desires for hot women.

The evidence suggests that gay people can no more help being gay, than straight people can help being straight.

But none of that means that gay people identify their sexuality as their most important and essential feature. It is certain that some do, but I imagine they are not much more numerous than straights who do so.

How many black people think that their colour is what matters most? How many whites?

George is making a fatuous generalization provoked by his deep hatred of homosexuals. If you replaced every occurrence of the word "homosexual" with the word "Jew" in that article it would sound just like...

...and that is not a coincidence.

[Agathon]

You've shown no sign of doing so.

Molly.

[Dinner]

Red blood New Zealand farmers will want civil unions with the favorite goat next.

[Kropotkin]

Leaving the tiresome and predictable debate aside, what I found interesting in it was this part:

[A]ll the best and most objective evidence suggests that [homosexuals] compose a maximum of 2 per cent, and probably less, of the population.

Really? I've for as long as I can remember that the proportion of homosexuals amoungst men is around or just below 10 %. Even if there would be few or no lesbians it would still give a proportion for the total population of at leat 5 %.

But when I think about it, I don't know how, where or when I got this figure. Does anyone have any serious estimates about this?

[Gibsie]

You have to bear in mind that to someone like that www.godhatesfags.com is a more objective source than CNN.

[Ben Kenobi]

You've shown no sign of doing so.

In any of my inclinations?

That's a pretty broad scope, Molly.

[Bkeela]

I thought that some gay posters might get a kick out of his impotent rage.

[Ben Kenobi]

I doubt I could make myself gay in the sense that I could experience sexual desire for men. I also doubt that I could stop feeling such desires for hot women.

The evidence suggests that gay people can no more help being gay, than straight people can help being straight.

I don't doubt the desire is there. But the desire is not the same as who they are. You agree with me here. If something is accidental, that means it can change, without changing the nature of the object.

Consider your own body. Does not your hair change colour as you age? Yet, does this change in your accidents alter your essence?

But none of that means that gay people identify their sexuality as their most important and essential feature. It is certain that some do, but I imagine they are not much more numerous than straights who do so.

Not quite. That is not what that fellow is saying. He is saying that they consider their desires to be part of their essence. He says nothing about a heirarchy.

How many black people think that their colour is what matters most? How many whites?

Very good comparison. Who was it that considered the black skin to be part of the essence? Was it not the racists, who said such skin affected their status. This is why this reasoning does not work. It is only by rejecting the fact that the accidents are not part of the essence, can one justify treating blacks as persons, just like one would treat gay people as persons.

George is making a fatuous generalization provoked by his deep hatred of homosexuals. If you replaced every occurrence of the word "homosexual" with the word "Jew" in that article it would sound just like...

I don't consider that an overgeneralisation. I consider that to be a perceptive comment.

[Ben Kenobi]

Really? I've for as long as I can remember that the proportion of homosexuals amoungst men is around or just below 10 %. Even if there would be few or no lesbians it would still give a proportion for the total population of at leat 5 %.

Yeah, that's what happens when Kinsey conducts what is supposed to be a 'representative' sample of the male population. The figure is taken from his study, and his study only, which has been parroted countless times by other people.

Most studies have confirmed the 2% number.