Ukraine

[Serb]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


oh. The citizenship issue is complex, as there have been ethnic Russians SETTLED in the Baltics during the entire Soviet period to create FACTS ON THE GROUND. Since Russia is DEMOGRAPHICALLY strong, it was in Soviet times able to increase numbers to point where a SECULAR DEMOCRATIC STATE OF LATVIA was almost INFEASIBLE. All Latvia has asked is that the SETTLERS adopt the Latvian language and culture, in order to gain full citizenship and voting rights. Otherwise they may remain as residents, but without full citizenship.

While this may not meet EU human rights standards, its more than understandable.

Double ****ing standards.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Serb


Double ****ing standards.

Obviously someones missing the sarcasm implied in the capitalized words. Somebody help Serb out, huh?

[Gangerolf]

Who wants a new avatar?

Serb?

[Lawrence of Arabia]

i agree - Latvia for Latvians. Finland for Finns. Russia for everyone and their brothers. :doitnow:

[Saras]

Originally posted by Serb
2) Perhaps for Hungrians you have one standard, but for Russians you have another. Russians in Latvia and Estonia are treated as second-grade humans, and nobody cares a **** about that in EU.

Russians in Latvia and Estonia ARE SYSTEMATICALLY thrown out of their homes by TENS of thousands and systematically brutalized by the police. Their government doesn't slughter them openly, but still they have a discriminating policy of expelling towards them.

I call for investigation by MIT (massachusets institute for tauroscatology). Serb, you really expect people to believe this crap? Or is this what you read in your "free" press?

Seriously, link, please (and none of those funny personal pages of PanSlavist reactionaries that you once posted - the guy asserted that Lithuania willingly joined USSR in 1940 )

Why, oh, why?
Because they are... ready to sell their land to those who are ready to buy.

If you're sincere posting this, you, sir, are an idiot.

They are unable to carry out their own independent foreign policy and doomed to be on someone's side. So, it's pretty logical they choose the strongest side. (Sorry Saras)

You are right in a sense that we need allies to ensure our security (the threat to which historically comes from the east...) We chose an alliance of free, wealthy, liberal & democratic nations as a couterweight to the unstable, corrupt and expansionist Russia (with the blood of our fathers and grandfathers on its hands.. and to add insult to injury, denying this fact). VERY EASY CHOICE IF YOU ASK ME!

[Saras]

Opposition leader claims victory in Ukraine
By Stefan Wagstyl in Kiev and Tom Warner in Kharkiv
Published: December 26 2004 15:01 | Last updated: December 27 2004 13:15

Opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko declared victory on Monday in the rerun of Ukraine’s disputed presidential election, following weeks of political turmoil and international tensions between Russia and the west.

According to the Central Election Commission, with more than 98 per cent of Sunday’s ballot counted, Mr Yushchenko had an unassailable lead with almost 52 per cent of the votes against just under 44 per cent for Viktor Yanukovich, the Moscow-backed prime minister.

“I want to say this is a victory of the Ukrainian people, the Ukrainian nation. We were independent for 14 years. Today we became free,” Yushchenko was quoted by Reuters as saying in his headquarters in the capital Kiev.

“Today, in Ukraine, a new political year has begun. This is the beginning of a new epoch, the beginning of a new great democracy.”




Ukraine in crisis





Read more FT news and analysis of the confrontation over the future of Ukraine.Go there


Mr Yushchenko, a former central banker and prime minister, is expected, if he wins, to improve ties with the west. He also wants to encourage the investigation of political wrong-doing, including his own poisoning, which left him disfigured.
The country was thrown into crisis after the November 21 poll, when Mr Yushchenko claimed he had been cheated and called his supporters on to the streets in the so-called Orange Revolution. The government backed down in the face of the biggest display of popular protest in the former Soviet Union.

Ukraine's Supreme Court ordered an election re-run and Leonid Kuchma, the outgoing president, agreed to wide-ranging political and legal changes which greatly reduced the scope for fraud and the authorities’ power to intervene in the polls.

Having earlier backed Mr Yanukovich, Mr Kuchma distanced himself from the prime minister, robbing Mr Yanukovich of the coordinated support he had previously enjoyed from the bureaucracy.

Mr Yanukovich, who was backed by Russia in previous rounds, hit back saying he had been cheated by the Supreme Court and a coup by foreign powers: a thinly-disguised reference to the west.

About 12,000 foreign observers and many thousand Ukrainians monitored the poll. Early reports indicated it was free of the centrally organised fraud which marred the last vote, although there were sporadic claims of local cheating by both camps.

Laws passed since the last vote have largely restricted absentee ballots, a major source of abuse. Despite the reduction in fraudulent votes, turnout on Sunday remained high at 78 per cent, down from 81 per cent.

[Giancarlo]

The Ukraineans made the right choice.

[Hurricane]

Looks good, and it seems Yushchenko also won by a large margin. However, I guess we still have to wait a couple of days so that they can recount and sort out any claims of cheating.

[The Vagabond]

The third round of the election was not only illegal, but also not free. How can it be free if one of the candidates had been publically humiliated before the vote, if the West let the Ukrainians know that their country would join the rogue states should they vote the wrong way. No wonder, many of the original Yanukovich supporters now voted for Yushchenko.

Congratulations, you won. Just don't pretend this has anything to do with democracy or with the rule of law.

[Last Conformist]

Since when is it undemocratic to publically humiliate candidates?

[The Vagabond]

Perhaps `humiliated' was not the word. I should have said `degraded' or even `destroyed'.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
The third round of the election was not only illegal, but also not free. How can it be free if one of the candidates had been publically humiliated before the vote, if the West let the Ukrainians know that their country would join the rogue states should they vote the wrong way.

Except the West did no such thing.

[The Vagabond]

From Hillary's article:

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/4101841a-57ab-11d9-a8db-00000e2511c8.html

As the ballots are being counted in Ukraine, the US and Europe need to continue to deliver a consistent message to all parties and candidates in Ukraine, and to the people of Ukraine, that respect for democracy and the rule of law is a central factor in determining the future relationship with the west.

Respect for democracy and the rule of law, my ass.

Over the next hours and days, we will hear the judgments of the international observers of the Ukrainain election. If they once again find widespread electoral irregularities and fraud, the US and Europe should once again refuse to recognise the legitimacy of the election and stand with those Ukrainians who are seeking true democracy and the rule of law.

... that is, if our candidate again loses, the US and Europe should once again stage the coup. Very nice.

The US and Europe should also consider visa bans and other targeted sanctions on those responsible for encouraging or participating in any efforts improperly to influence the outcome of the election.

Definitely! Visa bans is the most effective way to influence the elites. Hillary just forgot to mention that the whole country should be turned into a rogue state as a punishment.

However if, as is hoped, there is a consensus that the election has been free and fair, ...

.. i.e. if our candidate wins...

...the US response to the result will be critical to the US-Ukraine relationship. After a free and fair election in Ukraine, the US should immediately explore the willingness of the new Ukrainian government to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (Nato).

This is the point! This is what all the fight for 'democracy and the rule of law' is about!! Hurrah!

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Except the West did no such thing.

Permit me to respectfully disagree, sir.

[lord of the mark]

Yukoshenko won a substantial majority. AFAICT no one changed their votes - thats exactly the majority he WOULD have won in the previous election, had it been fair.