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I think I should better don't reply this post.
We can't find any compromise over some issues, so I'll better shut up to prevent loss of your freindship.
Originally posted by Serb
I think I should better don't reply this post.
We can't find any compromise over some issues, so I'll better shut up to prevent loss of your freindship.
I'd rather not have you hold a grudge - a sincere debate is welcome.
Originally posted by Serb:Please, remind me, how exactly and when exactly, Russia bullied its neighbors?
Originally posted by Ted Striker:Go Serb !
Originally posted by Pekka:If it was possible to capture the essentials of Sepultura in a dildo, I'd attach it to a bicycle and ride it up your azzes.
Nope, I'm not kidding.
1. The EU's policies since the fall of the Soviet empire weren't obsessed by containing Russia's power, unlike what you seem to believe.
2. The EU (and especially Germany) was the political entity that tried the most to integrate Russia into the democratic/capitalist world, what we called the "Free World" during the cold war.
After the fall of the great and the mighty Evil Empire, the west pissed off Russia over every issue. You have double standards for national minorities. You are ready to bomb Serbia to the ground to give Albanian minority in Kosovo wide authonomy (de-facto their own independent state), but don't care a thing about Russian speaking minorities (that represent great % of population there) in Baltic states.
We do care a thing about every minority in the EU. We have the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, and many countries have considerably progressed before their entrance in the EU with regard to the integration of their minorities (most notably Hungary with the integration of its strong Rom community).
The EU presses its members to adhere to the Charta (to the point that even France signed it despite its strong opposition).
Besides, I don't remind having heard of Russian-speaking Estonians or Latvians being thrown out of their homes by the thousands, being systematically brutalized by the military, and being regularly killed.
Lastly, many EU countries sought a peaceful solution to the ethnic cleansing happening in Kosovo, when the American diplomacy barged in and started the war. Just look at what happened during the Rambouillet bargainings, when Albright completely ignored Rugova and Milosevic to immediately favor the UCK
You have a double standard for terrorist- those who fight against you are terroirsts, those who fight against Russia are freedom fighters.
Where did you see that?
Chechen separatists are called "terrorists" on our media just as frequently as the Iraqi guerilla is. i.e., when they commit terrorist attacks we hear about, such as Beslan's, such as the attack in Moscow's theatre etc.
We do not support these *******s. Actually, it is a pretty well documented fact among the EU population that the Chechen separatists are Islamists, exactly of the kind we hate. Those who are really interested in the question know even that they stem from outside of Chechnya, and they are the main cause as to why the war continues.
Now, even if we dislike your enemies, doesn't mean that we have to support you in whatever you do. You have leveled Groznyi! How can you expect our continent, whose public opinion so opposed the war in Iraq on grounds of the destruction it'd wrought, not to oppose a regime that wipes out a whole city?
You surround Russia with NATO bases.
Your neighbours want these NATO bases in. Saras asked a good question: why do you think they want these bases?
Your media is carrying out anti-Russian and anti-Putin campaign, etc, etc...
Our media was actually quite favourable to Putin when he first came to power. He brought stability in a place we knew to be filled of corruption and mafias (Eltsin's Russia). He brought economic growth.
Of course, his handling of the Chechnian crisis, and his increasingly authoritarian grip on the government made him look far worse.
And don't play an angel about trade between our countries. So far you do not have a real alternative for cheap Russian gas and oil.
And just how did we before the fall of the Iron Curtain ?
The trade relationship between the EU and Russia stems from political will. This si the same spirit that animated Europe's foundign fathers, when they wanted economic solidarities to be woven between the former enemies of WW2, before beginning true political solidarities. It's not the optimal situation, but it works.
The Russia-EU efforts to liberalize trade between us show that, if anything, we don't want to isolate Russia behind a new Iron Curtain, but at the contrary integrate it.
If we wanted to isolate you, we'd make embargoes on you - it wouldn't have changed much for us given the low trade between the Soviet and the Western bloc during the cold war. And we'd take our oil from the Middle East as usual.
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
I'd rather not have you hold a grudge - a sincere debate is welcome.
I don't mind another Apolyton OT bloodbath, but I can't fight vs. you, because I really don't want to lose your freindship. Go ahead, call me chiken.
p.s. FYI, the evil Putin's media now refers to problems of Russian speaking minorities in Baltic states as problems of Russian speaking minorities in Latvia and Estonia only. It doesn't mention Lithuania now.
This thead is near 700 posts. Shouldn't some mod stick a fork in it?
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
Nope, I'm not kidding.
1. The EU's policies since the fall of the Soviet empire weren't obsessed by containing Russia's power, unlike what you seem to believe.
2. The EU (and especially Germany) was the political entity that tried the most to integrate Russia into the democratic/capitalist world, what we called the "Free World" during the cold war.
After the fall of the great and the mighty Evil Empire, the west pissed off Russia over every issue. You have double standards for national minorities. You are ready to bomb Serbia to the ground to give Albanian minority in Kosovo wide authonomy (de-facto their own independent state), but don't care a thing about Russian speaking minorities (that represent great % of population there) in Baltic states.
We do care a thing about every minority in the EU. We have the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, and many countries have considerably progressed before their entrance in the EU with regard to the integration of their minorities (most notably Hungary with the integration of its strong Rom community).
The EU presses its members to adhere to the Charta (to the point that even France signed it despite its strong opposition).
1) I can't read your link.
2) Perhaps for Hungrians you have one standard, but for Russians you have another. Russians in Latvia and Estonia are treated as second-grade humans, and nobody cares a **** about that in EU.
Besides, I don't remind having heard of Russian-speaking Estonians or Latvians being thrown out of their homes by the thousands, being systematically brutalized by the military, and being regularly killed.
Russians in Latvia and Estonia ARE SYSTEMATICALLY thrown out of their homes by TENS of thousands and systematically brutalized by the police. Their government doesn't slughter them openly, but still they have a discriminating policy of expelling towards them.
Lastly, many EU countries sought a peaceful solution to the ethnic cleansing happening in Kosovo, when the American diplomacy barged in and started the war. Just look at what happened during the Rambouillet bargainings, when Albright completely ignored Rugova and Milosevic to immediately favor the UCK
Who cares who started it. Sure Clinton was the main bastard, but still it was a NATO operation-the agression of NATO vs. independent country, the vioalation of UN chapter.
Where did you see that?
Chechen separatists are called "terrorists" on our media just as frequently as the Iraqi guerilla is. i.e., when they commit terrorist attacks we hear about, such as Beslan's, such as the attack in Moscow's theatre etc.
We do not support these *******s. Actually, it is a pretty well documented fact among the EU population that the Chechen separatists are Islamists, exactly of the kind we hate. Those who are really interested in the question know even that they stem from outside of Chechnya, and they are the main cause as to why the war continues.
Sorry, but no matter how I tried, I always saw rebels, freedom fighters, gunmen, militants, insurgents and the same definitions for people who took children hostages and slaughter them. BBC didn't call them terrorist at least once.
Now, even if we dislike your enemies, doesn't mean that we have to support you in whatever you do. You have leveled Groznyi! How can you expect our continent, whose public opinion so opposed the war in Iraq on grounds of the destruction it'd wrought, not to oppose a regime that wipes out a whole city?
Civilians of this city (founded by Russians, btw and the city where tens of thousands of Russians lived until being slaughtered by those freedom fighters when they declared independence after the fall of USSR) had over a month to leave the city (it's something what glorious US army have not don't prior the storm of Al-Falujah). If you think that Al-Falujah or Mosul looks better than Groznyi, you are mistaken. It's war goddamnit and when your enemy hides in a city, you go there and finish him off.
Your neighbours want these NATO bases in. Saras asked a good question: why do you think they want these bases?
Why, oh, why?
Because they are... ready to sell their land to those who are ready to buy. They are unable to carry out their own independent foreign policy and doomed to be on someone's side. So, it's pretty logical they choose the strongest side. (Sorry Saras)
Our media was actually quite favourable to Putin when he first came to power. He brought stability in a place we knew to be filled of corruption and mafias (Eltsin's Russia). He brought economic growth.
Of course, his handling of the Chechnian crisis, and his increasingly authoritarian grip on the government made him look far worse.
Or perhaps your media was quite favourable to Putin when he first came to power, because they though he is the heir of Yeltsin who will continue to screw-up Russia?
And just how did we before the fall of the Iron Curtain ?
I'm pretty sure you did the same way. I think the bulk of SU's gas and oil export went to Europe since Brezhnev's times.
The trade relationship between the EU and Russia stems from political will. This si the same spirit that animated Europe's foundign fathers, when they wanted economic solidarities to be woven between the former enemies of WW2, before beginning true political solidarities. It's not the optimal situation, but it works.
The Russia-EU efforts to liberalize trade between us show that, if anything, we don't want to isolate Russia behind a new Iron Curtain, but at the contrary integrate it.
If we wanted to isolate you, we'd make embargoes on you - it wouldn't have changed much for us given the low trade between the Soviet and the Western bloc during the cold war. And we'd take our oil from the Middle East as usual.
With such oil prices embargos are out of the question. You do not have that luxury anymore (like you ever had). You need Russian gas and oil (not that we don't need your money you pay for it, but you really can't put embargo on us, at least now).
Originally posted by Serb
Sorry, but no matter how I tried, I always saw rebels, freedom fighters, gunmen, militants, insurgents and the same definitions for people who took children hostages and slaughter them. BBC didn't call them terrorist at least once.
BBC is no different wrt Islamic terrorists in Iraq, and in Israel.
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
1) Civilians of this city (founded by Russians, btw and the city where tens of thousands of Russians lived until being slaughtered by those freedom fighters when they declared independence after the fall of USSR) had over a month to leave the city (it's something what glorious US army have not don't prior the storm of Al-Falujah). If you think that Al-Falujah or Mosul looks better than Groznyi, you are mistaken. It's war goddamnit and when your enemy hides in a city, you go there and finish him off.
).
Actually we did encourage civilians to leave Fallujah, and almost all did. In the assault our troops STILL went house to house, and did NOT level the city. Perhaps Russians in Grozhny did not do so either. Fallujah has been covered extensivly by embedded reporters, who have given detailed reports on US marince actions including reporting an instance where a Marine shot a terrorist who was wounded and apparently not resisting. It caused quite a stir over here. Have reporters accompanied Russian troops in Chechnya? Have Russian troops been held to such standards, not to kill a wounded (but not surrendered) terrorist?
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
oddly, when Latvia applied to the EU, THIS is what ethnic Russians chose to protest.
"RIGA, , May. 1 (UPI) -- While Latvia formally joined the European Union Saturday, ethnic Russians in the country held a huge rally in defense of their language rights.
The ex-Soviet nation along with nine other states joined the EU Saturday. But at least 20,000 protestors marched peacefully through Riga to protest a law curbing the use of Russian in education, the BBC reported.
Under an EU law, all schools must teach mainly in Latvian.
Russian speakers make up almost a third of Latvia's population, and less than half of them have been given citizenship.
The demonstrators, many bused into the capital, sang the anthem of the Russian-language movement, a version of Pink Floyd's "Another Brick In The Wall."
The demonstration centered at the Soviet-era Victory Monument, which commemorates the defeat of Nazi Germany. Many Latvians see the monument as a symbol of the beginning of Soviet oppression."
Had we intervened in FRY in defense of Albanian language rights, we would have had to go in years before we did. However we did not.
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
i was just quoting UPI. Please provide other sources.
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
He wasn't saying he doesn't believe you. He was saying that he disagrees with Latvia's policy.
I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio
2) Perhaps for Hungrians you have one standard, but for Russians you have another. Russians in Latvia and Estonia are treated as second-grade humans, and nobody cares a **** about that in EU.
They are treated as second-grade citizens (actually, as no citizens at all, since most of them have no nationality), but the EU does care.
Latvia is the country where the problem is the worst. At the independence, Latvia only gave nationality to those who were there before 1945, and their offspring. Meaning that only about half of the population had the Latvian nationality.
There have been two waves of naturalization for the Russian minority, and now half of that minority has the Latvian nationality. The Russians of Latvia have the EU to thank for that, given that the local Latvian authorities hate the "invaders". And the EU demands more, and are now backed by the second party of Latvia, a Russophone party.
As soon as Estonia candidated for the EU membership in 1995, it was required to integrate its Russophone citizens. The integration is vastly insufficient, but at least, the Russophones devoid of Estonian nationality can vote in local government. And it has been noticed they now vote more on ideological than on ethnical reasons, which is an encouraging sign that integration progresses. Again, these progresses mostly stem from the EU, although Estonia doesn't seem as hostile as Latvia.
Russians in Latvia and Estonia ARE SYSTEMATICALLY thrown out of their homes by TENS of thousands and systematically brutalized by the police. Their government doesn't slughter them openly, but still they have a discriminating policy of expelling towards them.
Your claim made me curious, and I googled about the situation of the Russian minority in these countries. After all, given their poor treatment wrt civic rights, that could be possible.
I haven't found even one source that confirms what you are saying, including on websites that defend the rights of minorities. Could you please give me sources of that?
Civilians of this city (founded by Russians, btw and the city where tens of thousands of Russians lived until being slaughtered by those freedom fighters when they declared independence after the fall of USSR) had over a month to leave the city (it's something what glorious US army have not don't prior the storm of Al-Falujah). If you think that Al-Falujah or Mosul looks better than Groznyi, you are mistaken. It's war goddamnit and when your enemy hides in a city, you go there and finish him off.
It is the very same reason why our public opinion opposed the war in Iraq. Because we oppose the conditions which lead to such terrible destruction. Because we oppose the heavy-handling of such a situation.
If you think the EU hates Russia because we oppose the way you handle Chechnya, then the EU also hates the US for its behaviour in iraq, it hates Israel for its behaviour in Palestine, it hates China for its behaviour in Tibet, it hates Sudan for its behaviour in Darfur etc, it hates Turkey for its behaviour in Armenia etc...
Do you really think we hate all those countries?
Why, oh, why?
Because they are... ready to sell their land to those who are ready to buy. They are unable to carry out their own independent foreign policy and doomed to be on someone's side. So, it's pretty logical they choose the strongest side. (Sorry Saras)
Do you think that maybe, it could come from a very bad experience with the Russian domination, and their attempt to be protected from ever being dominated by Russia again? Or is this possibility outright impossible?
Or perhaps your media was quite favourable to Putin when he first came to power, because they though he is the heir of Yeltsin who will continue to screw-up Russia?
We saw his style when he was prime minister, and our media immediately noticed the difference.
With such oil prices embargos are out of the question. You do not have that luxury anymore (like you ever had). You need Russian gas and oil (not that we don't need your money you pay for it, but you really can't put embargo on us, at least now).
But do you think we even mused at the thought? That our deciders wondered, during soùe international summit: "how could we isolate Russia some more, now that they have lost their superpower status?"
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
Originally posted by DinoDoc
He wasn't saying he doesn't believe you. He was saying that he disagrees with Latvia's policy.
oh. The citizenship issue is complex, as there have been ethnic Russians SETTLED in the Baltics during the entire Soviet period to create FACTS ON THE GROUND. Since Russia is DEMOGRAPHICALLY strong, it was in Soviet times able to increase numbers to point where a SECULAR DEMOCRATIC STATE OF LATVIA was almost INFEASIBLE. All Latvia has asked is that the SETTLERS adopt the Latvian language and culture, in order to gain full citizenship and voting rights. Otherwise they may remain as residents, but without full citizenship.
While this may not meet EU human rights standards, its more than understandable.
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
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