The Triumph of Christianity

[alva]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


To what?

If there is no more religion, how can what they move to be called atheism?

Hey, let's get of atheism then, would make us both happy.

[alva]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Christianity

Western societies weren't dying out when they still believed in it...

You sure poverty has nothing to do with it???

[alva]

Originally posted by Heresson
I indeed think it is connected.
Majority of people stop religious activity due to "lack of time", for they are engulfed in work, wanting to earn more and more and are angry at restrictions in their hedonistic lifestyles.
Only then they start to think out an excuse for their behaviour.
Dieing out of Europeans is due to the same problem - they claim they can not afford children, because they want to live on higher level - while it is not the only thing the children need and not the only thing they need

Nothing to do with lack of time, it's called evolving.
BTW, you're describing American society, not European ( who on average work a lot less )

[Heresson]

It's not about who works more and who less, but about what You do with the rest of the time really.
Americans do not have lack of faith/lack of children problem

[MrFun]

Christianity is TEH BOMB!!

[Barinthus]

Perhaps but in any introductionary course to sociology, they teach (should!) you that there is a pattern among how advanced a country is and its population. Generally, more advanced a nation becomes, birthrate drops. Many reasons include lack of time (very true in the States and I cannot speak for Europe), lack of the need of cheap labor (in many Third World countries, children are often considered a source of labor to help out with farming and so on), and more time made available to individuals for recreational purposes. In the Third World, children are part of economic survivial stragety - they are extra hand for harvesting time while in the First World, there are no real reasons to have children other than "need to carry on the family name" or "cute factor" or it's what's expected of them.

This is why it's imperative for everybody to get together on global scale and figure how to help push developing countries onto on the same level as the First World countries. Then the global birthrate will drop big time and overpopulation will soon be no longer an issue. Pollution on the other hand...

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by DaShi
Christianity has been ingrained in Western thought since it's dominance. Along with it Jewsih thought hence Judeo-Christian. Religion played both helped and restricted scientific thought. In the Middle Ages, the Church created one of the few areas where philosophy could flourish.

Despite the common stereotype of the "kill the heathen" Catholic Church, the Midieval church was quite open to new ideas. True, they were mostly restricted to relgion and God, but few philosophies before modern times aren't. Christain thought laid the foundation of the more secular thought of the Renaissance. A casual look through Dante demonstrates this. Even then the Church didn't abolish science. Galileo is famous for demonstrating the Church's aversion to new ideas, but it is a half truth. Yes, he pissed off the Church. Not because he was preaching blasphomy (the Church did accept his ideas), but because the Church didn't feel that the public was ready to know this. This paternalism may show some restriction of science by the Church, but does not paint them as the creationist Bible-thumpers to later arise out of protestantism.

The early Catholic Church was quite aware of its role in Europe and the power it held. In fact, during its height, it acted more like a political empire than an overbearing theocracy. It was the Church's eventual lack of religious convinction in its actions that gave rise to several protestant sects. Those are your Bible-thumping loonies.

It's true that science wasn't uncommon to the church rule, but usually it should be based on the church' view, otherwise the researcher ended up like galileo. Even worse, it took centuries to get rid of these religious based "research results" and thereby slowing things down.

I certainly agree to that the church wasn't wery keen on letting loose facts that would weaken it's power, but i don't buy that it should be because they were worried about if common people were ready to know the truth, it was because they knew they would loose power.

If you don't mind, i'll call a church that has a habit of burning people who dares to speak against the church wiew on the truth as certified "Bible-thumping loonies".

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


I see.

Does this mean that those who do behave as Christians do but have never heard of Christianity, ought to be considered Christians?

I'm not quite shure what you mean ? If you are talking about common sense and sensible interaction between people, then i won't consider that as a specific christian virtue. If you are referring to be beliving in an almighty god, then you will be right - they might be called something else but christian would be acceptable.

Originally posted by Heresson
I indeed think it is connected.
Majority of people stop religious activity due to "lack of time", for they are engulfed in work, wanting to earn more and more and are angry at restrictions in their hedonistic lifestyles.
Only then they start to think out an excuse for their behaviour.
Dieing out of Europeans is due to the same problem - they claim they can not afford children, because they want to live on higher level - while it is not the only thing the children need and not the only thing they need

I certainly disagree. I know it's wery popular to say that people doesn't have any time left, but in my experience through the last 30 years (the period where i has been consious about this), is that long before the concept of "no time" religion was dropping down and that in a fast way. If i don't get it wrong, religion is factually growing in these times of "no time left" although it's not christianity that has the largest grow.

I don't know how it is where you are living, but i know that here (Denmark) people are still interested in having children, they just don't want to start a football team from age 18, and that's quite sensible since you no longer need a large bunch of children (where 3/4 probably dies in young age) to secure your old age. European population isn't dying out, it just don't grow with that catastrophic rate it did before.

Barinthus : i couldn't agree more

[Heresson]

In many states, even Poland, have almost zero growth, and some have negative one.
Europe's not in need of cheap labour?
Why then it allows and sometimes even encourages mass immigration for pernament or/and season works?

Others religions are growing - simply because they had 0 deal earlier, or close to it.

[Ben Kenobi]

I would say no, as (especially for some fundamental christian sects) you must have knowledge about certain things tlo be called christian.

Does it? Paul says in Romans, that the one without the law, that still lives by the law, is a law unto himself.

Many fundamental christians for example would probably definitely say no, because these people would have to accept Jesus as their only Lord and savior and therefore, as they don´t know about Jesus, are considered to be bloody heathens and go to hell, no matter how strong they obeyed the ten amendments and no matter how much good things they did to the world.

Actually, I don't think they would. From my point of view, I think Paul is right, that these Christians would recognise the trust in God by these pagans, and rather than calling them as such, would work with them to help them gain understanding of God.

My own Opinion is alike. If they naturally act according to the ten amendments and the like, but don´t believe in any gods, they rather should be consideres (practising?) Atheists than christians (as Christianity involves knowledge of Christ)

Is knowledge of Christ a prerequisite for salvation? I don't think scripture says this. Knowledge of Christ encourages people to follow him, but it is not a prerequisite.

(Practised atheism on the other hand doesn´t necessary involve any special behavior, aside from the standpoint that there aren´t any gods and everything could be explained by natural causes, so atheists could aside from this behave like christians but still be practising atheists)

Is it natural behaviour to behave according to the law? If that were the case, then why doesn't everyone follow the law without being told?

[Ben Kenobi]

Nothing to do with lack of time, it's called evolving.

Evolution apart from children?

Y'all must be a blind alley than.

[Ben Kenobi]

This is why it's imperative for everybody to get together on global scale and figure how to help push developing countries onto on the same level as the First World countries. Then the global birthrate will drop big time and overpopulation will soon be no longer an issue. Pollution on the other hand...

And if you succeed, what then?

No nation has successfully reversed what they call the demographic transition. The birthrate drops below replacement levels, and remains that way.

Oh, and they do have several courses like this at UBC. Interesting stuff!

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm not quite shure what you mean ? If you are talking about common sense and sensible interaction between people, then i won't consider that as a specific christian virtue. If you are referring to be beliving in an almighty god, then you will be right - they might be called something else but christian would be acceptable.

Sort of. I'm talking about, do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, those sorts of things.

Why would one apart from the law accept such constraints on his behaviour?

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Heresson
In many states, even Poland, have almost zero growth, and some have negative one.
Europe's not in need of cheap labour?
Why then it allows and sometimes even encourages mass immigration for pernament or/and season works?

Others religions are growing - simply because they had 0 deal earlier, or close to it.

No, Eourope has a relatively high unemployment and many countires has already a problem with integration of immigrants wich have extremely high unemployment rates. It's not true that eouropean countries are encouraging mass imigration - on the contrary, they are seeking for ways to stop what has happened the last 20 years. In the last three years immigration in denmark is reduced to approx 10 % of the previouis rate and other countires are considering to do the same.

I'm confused, please elaborate : "Others religions are growing - simply because they had 0 deal earlier, or close to it"

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Sort of. I'm talking about, do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, those sorts of things.

Why would one apart from the law accept such constraints on his behaviour?

I'm confused, when have religion ever been a security against that ? On the contrary, religion has often said that that was the right thing to do when those you do that to don't have the same faith as you have.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm confused, when have religion ever been a security against that ? On the contrary, religion has often said that that was the right thing to do when those you do that to don't have the same faith as you have.

Not really the point at hand. I'm asking why someone, without religion, would choose to constrain his behaviour in such a manner, particularly where such constraints are contrary to his own best interests.

I'm not saying all Christians do succeed in constraining their behaviour. Paul is very clear, that if we were to be judged by the law, we would all fail. None of us manage to live as we ought, but in trying to live, we take upon more of the characteristics of Christ.