The Triumph of Christianity

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Perhaps this is a sign that it is they who are right, and we who are wrong? That the dilution of Christianity by modern western culture does not work?

Death to the Western Infidels. They know not their God. The rivers shall run red with their swinehound blood.

[Heresson]

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Barinthus
If it wasn't Christianity (or to be more specific, the Catholic Church), Europe wouldn't be what it is today. Once the Roman Empire fell, European civilization basically crumbled under the barbarism. It was Catholic monks who preserved the knowledge of the anicents - without them, Homer, Plato, and Socrates among others would have been lost.

OTOH, if it were not for the aristocrats and the Church monopolising on learning, the barbarians might have been converted by culture

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Heresson
It's not like "You'll get help, if You convert" thing.

It was.

Originally posted by Heresson
A missionary activity though charity is something Christianity excelled in and it's something good rather than bad.

Really? Why?

Originally posted by Heresson
1) You mean institutions, not the religion as itself

Without the religion there would not be an institution. Besides, the religion did absolutely nothing for the people. It was the institution that preserved knowledge.

Originally posted by Heresson
Look at what was happening in French Revolution. Terror, and persecution of Christianity, with emphasis on persecution of catholic church.

How is this a counterpoint?

Originally posted by Heresson
if God exists, it is very helpful

Africa doesn't seem to be helped by an infinite, personal being now.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


It was.

No it is not, at least not today

Really? Why?

because it is converting people by showing them that your faith is good and orders to care about other people?

Without the religion there would not be an institution. Besides, the religion did absolutely nothing for the people. It was the institution that preserved knowledge.

The religion inspired many people to doing good.

How is this a counterpoint?

My point is that both sides were doing wrong

Africa doesn't seem to be helped by an infinite, personal being now.

Perhaps it will, and if God exists, the Africans will have a chance to go to Heaven.

[Barinthus]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

My question to you, is why do these Africans do not have proper Christianity, while the Europeans do? This 'rational' religion as you put it is dying. The missionary Africans are growing.

Perhaps I were wrong to call the Third World Christianity not 'proper.' Perhaps this is natural evolution of the Christianity as we know it.

However I have hard time accepting people who speak of the Christ and using witchcraft at same time as 'proper' Christianity.

Now I think about it, I do not recall seein a true African missionary. All missionaries I saw in Africa had white skin. Perhaps this will change in the future but the mentality right now in areas I have visited is very much Hakuta Matata which when translated literally 'no problems/worries.' However when you put it in their cultural context, it actually means a very fatalist view of 'Everything sucks, life sucks, we might all die tomorrow, the crops might wither up and there are nothing we can do to change our fate so we as well sit on our backside and wait for it to come so why worry?'

So with that mindset, they are unlikely to stand up and shout 'I shall go out into the decadent Western wilderness and spread the Word!'

Especially when you take in that Christianity itself is somewhat fatalist in its nature.

[molly bloom]

Who burned the library?

http://www.bede.org.uk/library.htm

http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062885/K=li...SIG=121lshl5s/*-http%3A//www.ehistory.com/world/articles/ArticleView.cfm?AID=9

http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062885/K=li...SIG=11nafkdru/*-http%3A//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria


Take your pick.

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Heresson


LOL
Where do You take this stuff from?
Romans captured the city in 30BC, before the Christ was borned!
How could the Christians intend to destroy the library then? Or Muslims try to save it?
Or are You referring to the conquest of Alexandria by Muslims? If so, what are the pagans doing in your story - there were no pagans left there then?
And I sincerily doubt the barbaric warriors that took the city really were so keen to save some scrolls...
And when it comes to Christians, why would they wait with destroying the books up to Muslim conquest, huh?
In another words,
one big: HUH?



Unlike Islam, Christianity was not politically engaged from its start and unlike it, it started converting people by sword only several centuries after its start by people who have no authority in Christian religion not in their times, and not now.
Let me be that obscure in this subject, I don't want any Christianity - Islam conflict here. If You want to start holy war in this thread, so be it. But be sure You'll lose it.

You are very uneducate person. First when Roman legion where fighting Cleop bother force than fire broke out than the leader of both side value the library both army stop fighting to save scrolls and books than to put out the fire. In the 5th century than inportant father of the church stir up than cword of pooly educate christion to burn down the library than framous pagon philoher was murder by the christian. This was the really end of the library even thought it was rebuilt it was never the same. Muslim wherenot barbaric like you are implying they mightnot be as learn as the people they conquest by they want to learn knowlege from any scource like the koran command then to do. It seem like in USA Canada doesnot do than very good job of teaching history.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Heresson
To Syrian Christians (and not only), actually, who were translating the stuff into Arabic.

Not only the Assyrian/Chaldean church of the East (essentially Nestorian Church until the 16th century) but also the Celtic Church in nroth western Europe was actively preserving and reporducing Roman & Greek writings (read the book "How the Irish saved the world"). Charlimagne turned over most of the Christian monistaries in his empire to the Celtic Church (which the Pope opposed) and the Celtic Church insisted on reproducing ancient text even when the Catholic church objected because those texts had been written by pagans.

[Ben Kenobi]

Oerdin:

That's a great book.

Glad to hear that you read it.

[Ben Kenobi]

However I have hard time accepting people who speak of the Christ and using witchcraft at same time as 'proper' Christianity.

Granted, but I doubt the vast majority of African Christians practice witchcraft.

Now I think about it, I do not recall seein a true African missionary. All missionaries I saw in Africa had white skin.

Why would Africa send missionaries to Africa?

They'd send missionaries to the first world.

Perhaps this will change in the future but the mentality right now in areas I have visited is very much Hakuta Matata which when translated literally 'no problems/worries.' However when you put it in their cultural context, it actually means a very fatalist view of 'Everything sucks, life sucks, we might all die tomorrow, the crops might wither up and there are nothing we can do to change our fate so we as well sit on our backside and wait for it to come so why worry?'

Yeah, that is a concern. The ones who you met shouldn't be as fatalistic as that.

So with that mindset, they are unlikely to stand up and shout 'I shall go out into the decadent Western wilderness and spread the Word!'

Obviously not all the Africans are that fatalistic. There are many of the Africans who do take that position to evangelise the decadent west.

Especially when you take in that Christianity itself is somewhat fatalist in its nature.

Not sure what you mean by this. Christians look towards the world to come, and not necessarily this world, so things like crop failures will mean less than they will to the materialist. It doesn't make them fatalists, though.

Many in fact see things the opposite way. If their time here is so short, then they'd better make it count.

[CharlesBHoff]

The 30,000 year for parpy is only a number based on theory. Most moderm paper use in notebook, paperback books will last than maxium of 100 year. Bright sunlight, rainand water, certain bug(they form dust from eath paper) and make modern paper last less than 100 year. Plus modern paper has too much acid in it to make it white, while the first paper have more base in it. Have than paper back book more than twentry old than the paper turn yellow allready. CD almost last 5 year than estimate from the Library of Congress not 20 years it manufactor say.

[Dinner]

I've heard of several African Churches sending missionaries to various other parts of Africa. Other then South Africa and a minority of Kenyans all of those missionaries would be black. Half of Africa's population are black Christians (and that's the largest religous group on the continent).

[Ben Kenobi]

I don't know very much about African-African missions.

So whatever you know would be appreciated.

[Barinthus]

Good counterpoints you made, BK. I'm not convinced although

I don't know if this means anything - in Kenya, Christians were mostly Penacostians. I've seen J's Witnesses. While I've ran into many white Memmonites, I haven't met a Kenyan who is one.