Conservative principle(s) of Justice. Are there any?

[Ben Kenobi]

aesthetically ordered or integrated

Religion is much more orderly than other things.

If you mean logically coherent, then we have a dispute over whether logic requires empirical proof in order to operate.

[Agathon]

Ned, Rawls is not a socialist. He allows for private enterprise.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
You say this as if it's a bad thing.

Of course it's the way the world works, the difference is in the way it is executed

A more direct way would have been to define it as the whole "f u we're gonna do what we want" attitude, which pretty much bypasses diplomacy completely

[Agathon]

If you mean logically coherent, then we have a dispute over whether logic requires empirical proof in order to operate.

You know that it doesn't. Logical truth can be defined as tautology and valid inferences as tautologies. You've done philosophy, you know this.

But again, it is besides the point. I want a principle, or set of coherent principles that provide a benchmark from which to derive specific ethical imperatives.

The conservatives must be able to do better than this. Or perhaps their views have no rational basis.

[Ben Kenobi]

Doesn't coherence require:

a) internal consistency?
b) external consistency (not violating observable facts) ?

Internal consistency is a form of coherence. To say that something must be both internally and externally consistent in order to be coherent is not necessary.

Secondly, which observeable principles does religion, such as Christianity for example, violate?

[Agathon]

You know that it doesn't. Logical truth can be defined as tautology and valid inferences as tautologies. You've done philosophy, you know this

For example [If (If p then q) and p] then q] is a tautology for all values of p and q (it's modus ponens).

[DinoDoc]

Why does Ben bite at such poor trolls when it could have degenerated at a nice circle jerk thread with Ted and Aggie?

[Sava]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Interal consistency is a form of coherence. To say that something must be both internally and externally consistent in order to be coherent is not necessary.

Secondly, which observeable principles does religion, such as Christianity for example, violate?

well... take creationism for instance... do you think creationism is logical?

[Ben Kenobi]

You know that it doesn't. Logical truth can be defined as tautology and valid inferences as tautologies. You've done philosophy, you know this.

I do know this.

So that validates my point. Religion could be logical from an internal perspective, and thus qualify as coherent.

So you are the one who lacks proof for your assertion that all religious principles are incoherent.

[Agathon]

Secondly, which observeable principles does religion, such as Christianity for example, violate?

None. But it isn't confirmed by any of them either. But this is besides the point. Where are the general principles?

[Ben Kenobi]

None. But it isn't confirmed by any of them either.

So?

Then you lack evidence that Christianity, and religious principles are incoherent.

Thus, a conservative could appeal to religious principles in Natural Law, and be equally, if not more grounded, than Liberal conceptions of justice.

[Agathon]

So that validates my point. Religion could be logical from an internal perspective, and thus qualify as coherent.

No, because logical truths are tautologies and thus do not tell us anything new about the world.

The claims that God exists, that God orders morality and that there are things like natural rights, are not tautologies, because their contraries make sense.

"God does not exist" is a meaningful statement, which can be true or false. Tautologies are necessarily true. Ergo statements concerning God's existence are not tautologies.

[Ben Kenobi]

Interesting.

So what you say here is that Christianity makes claims about the world, that we lack the tools to investigate empirically.

That's a stroke in their favour for saying they are not only internally coherent, but externally coherent.

[Agathon]

That's a stroke in their favour for saying they are not only internally coherent, but externally coherent.

but we have no reason to believe.

[Ben Kenobi]

well... take creationism for instance... do you think creationism is logical?

Depends on what you mean by creationism.

Are you talking about the young earthers?